My 12 yo son and myself were very excited about our upcoming trip from TLV to MIA in Aug of 2017, we are both aviation fans,and the thought of riding the A380 in Business class on the upper deck was exciting in particular .We counted the days( not to mention saving for for months as it is not cheap ,about 6000 euro RT for both.)

Our first step down hill on this journey was the lack of business class on the TLV-FRA-TLV flights.My poor lower back.LH uses an ALL economy A321 on the route( a 4 hour flight) with the seat next to you blocked .No extra leg room,no extra recline,no Business pillows or blankets,no IFE,no internet,no beverage service on the ground.WOW. What a shocker that was.I knew they have a product called 'European Business Class' ,I didn't expect flat beds,but did expect comfortable 2-2 armchair style seats,leg rest,IFE.None of that ,without any pre warning.
Needless to say we arrived FRA tired,just as any Economy class passenger would feel after a 4 hour flight that left TLV at 0450 am.
The lounge was very crowded,and it took us a while to secure proper seats rather than the only high 'bar like ' chairs that my son found extremely uncomfortable,and so did I.
We finally headed to the gate to meet our A380 with much excitement ( the agent at reception said all was on time)
As we arrived the gate,we had the pleasure of hearing that 'our' A380 was in....Munich.It was diverted there on its flight from Delhi due to bad weather in FRA,and now they were expecting a 2-3 hour delay.Why were we made to leave the lounge? Obviously the diversion was already know to LH since 6 am when it happened,but they were still sending people to the gate at 9am as if all was on time? Strange.
We stayed at the gate,as we didn't feel like walking all the way back to the lounge .
Finally we boarded the whale,and were greeted by a very sad looking male cabin crew,who tried to make an effort to be nice,but not with much success.
The internet we paid for didn't work ( file for a refund' we were told) they ran out of mid flight snacks very quickly ,they had none suitable for children( we ordered a child meal) the dishes from the pre arrival meal were not cleared,and I myself took them to the galley before landing.Also the headphones were not fresh from a plastic bag,they were permanently hooked to the seats( to avoid stealing maybe) and so they are used again and again without cleaning.
And if they do disinfect them somehow,it's hard to imagine they have time to do it on such quick turnarounds with 100 business seats.Why not provide a fresh pair of headsets in a sealed plastic bag like all other airlines I flew with?
We slept most of the flight as we were exhausted from not sleeping the night before ( left home at 1am) and with the sad face of our host,we were not sad at all to get off.We expected a WOW experience from LH business,but found it very very average.
The return journey was nothing but a nightmare.Check in in Miami opened 20 minutes late,and we spent sometime in LH's lounge in Miami that is run by Avianca,small and crowded,very poor food offerings,crowded bathrooms,and hosts desperately looking for seats to accommodate the increasing number of guests flooding in,as AV has lots of afternoon flights to South America.
We boarded an unairconditioned A380 in the heat of an August afternoon in Miami.My son started to feel ill from the heat and lack of fresh air.I myself was uncomfortable,and so many others who were using their menus as an air fan.Our friendly host promised 'things will get cooler ' when we taxi,but by then my son already vomited,and the whole luxurious experience was quickly deteriorating to a very distressed one.Obviously LH was saving money on running their APU,subjecting their guests to a 'sauna like' atmosphere.The worst part was that after over an hour on the ground grasping for some cool air that didn't blow,they kept the temp quite high during the flight.Passengers were sleeping without blankets,and a polite request from the pursuer to maybe lower the temperature a bit was refused.
Boy,we were happy to get off that plane in FRA.We also had the pleasure of finding a used pair of socks from the previous flight,which were removed by a very embarrassed f/a.So much for feeling 'special'..won't mention food or drinks,as we we didn't eat,my son was ill,I felt nauseated from the heat most of the way,we just drank and wanted that flight to end.
Than it was back to the 'comfy' A321 ,struggled into the crowded Economy seats,but here at least the air conditioned worked.We could not be more greatful for not sweating or feeling ill.
My poor son,exhausted from his illness fell asleep right away,and I enjoyed listening to a sweet baby girl who didn't stop screaming for the duration of the flight.The poor thing was probably ill,but still made to travel,and turned the flight to a nightmare.I must commend the passengers for being so understanding to that crisis.I really felt sorry for the poor baby.She was obviously in distress,if she had the energy to scream 3.5 hours nonstop,and her poor embarrassed parents could not do anything to calm her down.
30 minutes before arrival in TLV ,all passengers must be seated due to a decree from the Israeli Federal Security agency.That is to avoid or detect unwanted movement in the cabin while on approach to Tel Aviv.Same measures were used in the USA after 9/11. No moving around while the aircraft flying over DC or NYC.Same idea here.
I woke my son up 35 min before arrival,so he can use the bathroom .When we reached the vacant toilet,a male cabin crew asked me to return to my seat as the 30 min dead line was approaching,and I did.He did however say to 'leave my son with him,and he will take care of him'...which I assumed letting him relive himself.By now he was already in pain and strong bladder pressure.Surprisingly a minute later my son returned to his seat telling me he was NOT allowd into the toilet ,as another crew member 'jumped the line'.When she came out of the toilet ,it was already 28 minutes to landing,but still the friendly cabin crew who jumped the line signaled my son to enter the bathroom.The male cabin crew,the one who promised me to take care of the child,Surprisingly refused entry to the toilet to my son,who returned in tears to his seat.He was left to suffer 25 minutes until landing,when he finally was allowed to use the bathroom.Not very impressive judgement call on his behalf.The child needs only 30 seconds in the bathroom.I would even go as far as saying it was cruel.

What can I say? And we looked forward to this trip!!! Never again LH,and you can keep your 200 euro offered as compensation for that misery trip.

You should have flown El Al. They just started Nonstop flights. I flew Lufthansa in economy and I did not like it; tight legroom, mediocre meals and Frankfurt Airport to connect is a zoo. Do you have any pictures? At least you got some good air miles from this. I hope you missed the hurricane.

Thanks lychemsa,but LY will only start their nonstop to MIA Nov 1st.And true,I believe LH is now flying on credits no longer due.In my worst dreams I didn't expect such a poor hard and soft product.
No pics taken as there was no mood to remember any of it,but I should have really.Especially of their desert...a small ice cream,same as UA serves in Economy.
Yes,thankfully we missed the Hurricane by 2 weeks.
Take care.

That is very unfortunate experience. LH and many other European carriers use the so cold European business class. It is fine for a max 2 hour flight, but I am surprised they use it on longer routes to TLV. For the 380, I guess having 78 seats in J class does not make it such an exclusive experience. I have only flown LH Business on shorter sectors from DXB to FRA, and I thought they were OK. Their crew have been generally always good. It sounds like your aircraft did not have the APU working. This always creates really uncomfortable temperatures before the engines start. They could have been more proactive on ground with offering cold water and cold towels to passengers.
Thank you for sharing, and sorry to hear about your experience. Not something you want to experience while flying in Business Class.

Thanks flyboy_se...
I also think that using that type 'none' Business class on a relative long flight is a shame,especially if you paid for it as if it was business class and got zero value for it.You are right,most times their crews are polite,in our case too,but that didn't matter really as the hard product was poor,the high temp caused us called for discomfort.BTW,they didn't mention any tech issues in Miami regarding the high temp.They could have also used an external AC unit,there are solutions,you just don't let your customers sit in such conditioned for so long.During the flight i asked for some ice so we can cool our selves,but were refused as the seat belt sign was on ( no turbulence,just an 'active' jet stream) so i waited two hours to get some ice.I must add that during those two hours many crew members were moving around,passengers going to the bathroom with no restrictions.I found it odd that they could not care less about us feeling ill,they didn't even ask we're we sat so they could bring the ice to us or check on us after the signs were off.
Thanks for your concern.

I give you right, 4 hrs in an A321 on "Camping ChairsW is not the Business Class experience I would expect. Its hard to say, but British Airways is in that way much better. They use a special A321 with a long haul Seat Configuration. Thank you for sharing your experiences!

Thanks Robisintheair,u r absolutely right,BA respects their Business class passengers on short/mid haul flights,unlike LH.Regardless of the length of the flight,if you paid 3 or 4 times as much as the folks behind the curtain,you deserve better.Big mistake not taking BA,but we wanted the A380. Foolish decision.
Tae care.

Sounds like really miserable experience. Did you consider writing LH?
While their business class product to TLV is what it is and they probably won't do much about it, your experience with inop APU on the ground in MIA and the lavatory access issue on the return TLV leg definitely demand apology and some sort of compensation.

Personally, I stay away from LH when flying long haul in business. Tried them once on TLV-MUC-SFO and promised myself to never come back. Was sitting in the last raw of "business" cabin and the kids seated behind me in Y kept kicking my seatback and stealing pillows through the gaps between the seats. While the kids were really cute, the whole experience was nowhere near what a proper business class should be. On top of that, the lounge in MUC was a huge letdown - I expected a nice new facility and found cramped room with very little food offerings. As much as people complain about BA, at least every flight to TLV has a proper flatbed seat and LHR lounges, while eons from being worlds' best, are still better than FRA or MUC.

Every word you say is 'a bingo' Ilyagran." The whole experience was nowhere near what a proper business class should be" ....i could not word it better than you.
One would expect a lounge in MUC,their HUB to be more than decent.Surprised to hear it was not,but now nothing i hear about LH business class subpar product wont surprise me.Try their Avianca lounge in Miami....what a sad joke...BA indeed if not great,at least you get a flat bed out of TLV ,even on their A321 .

I did write LH,but their offer for 200 euro seems like an insult to me,considering i spent 30% of the trip in couch rather than real business,the torture
In their hot cabin in Miami,my son illness as a result ,and the final blow,the toilet issue.I don't wish on any parent to witness their child unable to use the bathroom due to a heartless cabin crew.Its a child for God's sake.TG we can take our hard earned money elsewhere next time.
Thanks for your input.

Didn’t even attempt to read this with a lack of paragraphs.

I have to say that I am a big Fan of LH and I use them recently in Business and Economy.

But I have to agree with you that the "new" seats in the european fleet (all narrow bodies) are back breakers.
To seat on these over 4 Hours. Yes not a pleasure.

Sorry that you made this expirience.

Robisintheair wrote:

I give you right, 4 hrs in an A321 on "Camping ChairsW is not the Business Class experience I would expect. Its hard to say, but British Airways is in that way much better. They use a special A321 with a long haul Seat Configuration. Thank you for sharing your experiences!

BA also sub out the TLV route to short haul config at times so I guess you it depends what date.flight you travel as to how lucky/unlucky you are.

Thank you DAIAM for your input.Indeed those new seats are not anyone would expect to have while flying in Business class for 4 hours...but I guess LH can get away with it,so why not? They probably think "Let's charge premium,and provide zero comfort in return".Shame.

TLVAIR....while I sympathize with you, I have to ask, why didn't you check out a LH seat map prior to booking? You would have seen the layout of the cabin and could have made alternative arrangements. With respect to the cabin temp. My guess it was probably a combination of APU inop and the restrictions at MIA which resulted in your warm cabin. Just to play "devil's advocate", you do realize no matter how warm it was in the cabin, it was much warmer in the cockpit? So, if there were any way the aircraft could have been cooled down that would have happened!

HI MMO,
Checking seating maps is wise,but the average person ( except aviation experts and frequent travelers ,would not go into such details)
And indeed I knew the hard product was not a flat bed or even close to that,but I didn't expect an all around Economy seat.An Airline can sell what ever they wish,and no one has to buy it.But when LH allows itself to call regular Economy seats 'Business' ,they should come clean with their consumers.
Exactly as the FAA Req Airlines to advise passengers they will fly on turboprop as part of their trip.LH should advise pax their 'business class' is just a regular Economy cabin with the middle seat blocked. Its not up to the traveler to investigate.'Business Class' means two things: Expensive tickets + comfort.Its both usually,but being expensive and not comfortable ? Unacceptable .


Since I work at an airport,I know many pilots and mechanics of different airlines.If the APU is inop,or environmental restricted ,there are other ways to keep the cabin cool.And as far as the cockpit temp,with all due respect,the pilots are paid to be there,in contrast to a customer who pays premium to be there.
The comfort of the customers comes before that of the crew.

Take care.

Very typical LH experience - i have experienced a few exceptions, however what you are describing is typical LH business class product. I opt for UA (sad to say but I prefer them to LH) or TK

True haf.Typical and really unacceptable LH experience....I wonder how they managed to bring business class to such a low level of comfort,and get away with it.
Take care.

Ugh. The hot cabin part is so LH and Swiss too for that matter. Not sure why they keep their cabins so ridiculously hot. Airlines should always default on the cold side.

Yes alt flyer,this is awful.From a friend that is a purser I heard she keeps temp in the cabin in the low 70's to keep passengers feel well,and as you know, warm closed places and bacteria .....
Have a cool day:-)

TLVAIR wrote:

LH uses an ALL economy A321 on the route( a 4 hour flight) with the seat next to you blocked .No extra leg room,no extra recline,no Business pillows or blankets,no IFE,no internet,no beverage service on the ground.WOW. What a shocker that was.I knew they have a product called 'European Business Class' ,I didn't expect flat beds,but did expect comfortable 2-2 armchair style seats,leg rest,IFE.None of that ,without any pre warning.

I am very sorry for the poor service - and I am not a fan of LH either!
But, the information is clear, all infos are available on their web-page - so you should have known beforehand about this problem. A little search would have helped a lot.
The only true *A European carrier to TLV is LX with their A330s and some selected TK flights.

Also BA currently offers flat beds on all TLV flights,as an airline that respect its market,would not offer a 'non business class product' on a4 hour flight.Thats simply stretching the economics to a level that does not value the market.But if people still fly it,why not continue with that poor practice ? It works for them,why stop? After a research I have done LH's first rows had extra leg room,but that was eliminated too.
Knowing that premium paid tickets will sit there in crowded conditions? Not a very 'pro market decision' ...even if one finds that info on the WEB ,it's still does not make LH free of guilt in daring to provide such a poor business class that wont even be called 'Economy plus in the USA.
Even reasearching the WEB as suggested is common amongst airline veterans who know what to look for.Im not a frequent flyer ,and I don't search such things.When I pay premium,I expect premium.Now will start searching and investigating.
Take care.

debonair wrote:

TLVAIR wrote:

LH uses an ALL economy A321 on the route( a 4 hour flight) with the seat next to you blocked .No extra leg room,no extra recline,no Business pillows or blankets,no IFE,no internet,no beverage service on the ground.WOW. What a shocker that was.I knew they have a product called 'European Business Class' ,I didn't expect flat beds,but did expect comfortable 2-2 armchair style seats,leg rest,IFE.None of that ,without any pre warning.

I am very sorry for the poor service - and I am not a fan of LH either!
But, the information is clear, all infos are available on their web-page - so you should have known beforehand about this problem. A little search would have helped a lot.
The only true *A European carrier to TLV is LX with their A330s and some selected TK flights.

That is not 100% accurate, as only 1 out of 2 flights is operated by a wide body A330, while the other is operated by narrow body A321 with European business class. The narrow plane is been used for the late night departure from ZRH, right when most passengers need a bed to sleep in.

Need to mention El Al in this matter, which has designated business class seats on all flights, including short flights to Europe.

That's correct,not all LX flights are wide body into TLV.Plus I believe the term 'European Business Class' should be eliminated,as that class of service has nothing to do with Europe or Comfort.A very misleading term.And yes,ELAL is the only airline that has a TRUE business class on all of its narrow body fleet on schedule flights.I believe SU as well on ALL narrow body aircrafts.Some Airlines respect customers who pay business fares to get business comfort.Some don't unfortunately,and operate so called ' European Business Class' that US carries wont even dare call 'Economy Plus' or Economy Extra' etc.
I believe a consumer rights body should look into this matter.

MANMatthew wrote:

Didn’t even attempt to read this with a lack of paragraphs.

Excellent contribution to this thread. I bet it took you forever to think of a response like that.

Seriously though, sorry to hear you had a poor experience. I would’ve been writing to them the moment I was home. It seems like it was the exact opposite of an experience you were expecting.

jeffh747 wrote:

MANMatthew wrote:

Seriously though, sorry to hear you had a poor experience. I would’ve been writing to them the moment I was home. It seems like it was the exact opposite of an experience you were expecting.

I had to read this a few times before I realized it wasn't a sarcastic response to MANMatthew about his poor experience while reading the report

I did indeed write LH upon arriving home,even called them...their answers were even more upsetting than the experience ,and there was a limit to the length of the report.
In short they claim that :

1-The terrible heat in the cabin in Miami was because 'technically' they can not regulate temperature while on the ground...which is true....you can't make it exactly 70f if the doors are open,so it may be 73f in the cabin...but def does not justify close to 90f...that is already another issue...APU usage and savings....all pilots know what I'm talking about....however decent airlines will run up their APU in tropical/hot weather stations to avoid suffering in the cabin.
2-My son was ill onboard,I reported it to the F/A,but no one came to offer medical care,or check on him periodically as crews should.LH claims the seat belt sign were on,so movement of F/A was not allowed in the cabin,so they could not attend to him,nor even bring ice to cool him down...But they definitely moved around to go to their rest area.( due to strong jet stream they kept the seat belt sign on for 2 hours)

3-Refusing him entry to the bathroom upon approach to TLV is nothing but a bad judgement call of their crew,that's after discussing it with other crew members that fly to TLV ,and are familiar with the ban.Minors should be allowed at any time to use the bathroom with an escort of the crew.
So according to LH,all they did was in line with good thinking and 'dedication' to their passengers...HA!
Well this case is now handled by a third party.Lets see who was right,and who was wrong.

N415XJ wrote:

jeffh747 wrote:

MANMatthew wrote:

Seriously though, sorry to hear you had a poor experience. I would’ve been writing to them the moment I was home. It seems like it was the exact opposite of an experience you were expecting.

I had to read this a few times before I realized it wasn't a sarcastic response to MANMatthew about his poor experience while reading the report

The first part was a sarcastic response to MANMatthew, the second part was a sincere reply to the trip report author. Perhaps I should’ve been a bit clearer haha

You were clear enough.

TLVAIR wrote:

I did indeed write LH upon arriving home,even called them...their answers were even more upsetting than the experience ,and there was a limit to the length of the report.
In short they claim that :

1-The terrible heat in the cabin in Miami was because 'technically' they can not regulate temperature while on the ground...which is true....you can't make it exactly 70f if the doors are open,so it may be 73f in the cabin...but def does not justify close to 90f...that is already another issue...APU usage and savings....all pilots know what I'm talking about....however decent airlines will run up their APU in tropical/hot weather stations to avoid suffering in the cabin.
2-My son was ill onboard,I reported it to the F/A,but no one came to offer medical care,or check on him periodically as crews should.LH claims the seat belt sign were on,so movement of F/A was not allowed in the cabin,so they could not attend to him,nor even bring ice to cool him down...But they definitely moved around to go to their rest area.( due to strong jet stream they kept the seat belt sign on for 2 hours)

3-Refusing him entry to the bathroom upon approach to TLV is nothing but a bad judgement call of their crew,that's after discussing it with other crew members that fly to TLV ,and are familiar with the ban.Minors should be allowed at any time to use the bathroom with an escort of the crew.
So according to LH,all they did was in line with good thinking and 'dedication' to their passengers...HA!
Well this case is now handled by a third party.Lets see who was right,and who was wrong.

That’s absolutely despicable that they are ducking their heads in the sand and they don’t see any issue whatsoever with their cabin service. Not even a half-assed apology!

It's true! I would have accepted an apology,and would have moved on....but after they made an effort to justify every wrong action they took....I decided to pursue it further.So arrogant.Live and learn....I always admired them...now I can't even watch their airplanes without feeling angry.

TLVAIR wrote:

the FAA Req Airlines to advise passengers they will fly on turboprop as part of their trip

Do they?

When I worked at a Certain US airlines res,we had to,as some passengers won't fly prop out of fear,and you must advise them its part of the itenirary .
Today,for example ,if you purchase a ticket on UA,that includes UA Express flight,you will see it in remarks under the flight number.

TLVAIR wrote:

When I worked at a Certain US airlines res,we had to,as some passengers won't fly prop out of fear,and you must advise them its part of the itenirary .
Today,for example ,if you purchase a ticket on UA,that includes UA Express flight,you will see it in remarks under the flight number.

My understanding is that the rule requires the passenger to be advised of the airline actually operating the flight, and that the identification of the aircraft type is merely a courtesy. Certainly there's no law I know of that requires the airline to specifically identify flights operated by propeller aircraft at the time of sale.

Will check If It is or was an FAA req...even if not...UA has the courtesy to advise you of something you may not expect.When people book UA,they really think prop...so it make sense....
In that regard,when you book Business Class,you don't expect to be seated in Economy seats.In the US such a product won't fly with the legacies .
I checked BA website ,and they do have a similar product to LH,but only on SHORT HAUL European flights...And if they want to use the A321 on medium haul,they use the ex BMI with lie flat bed seats.
You just Don't sit customers in Economy seats for over 4 hours and charge premium for that.Its a shame little respect is paid to customers comfort on flights that longer than 1-2 hours .And if you call it ' European Business Clasd',then fly it in Europe.TLV is in the ME.