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KarelXWB
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RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:08 am

Looks like the first T1000-TEN engine will fly very soon. Spotters have caught the engine during mounting on the RR 747 testbed:

Image
Rolls Royce Trent 1000 Engine for Boeing 787 a by Bill Word, on Flickr

Image
Rolls-Royce N787RR by cactusbillaz, on Flickr

Image
Rolls Royce Boeing 747-200 N787RR by Royal King, on Flickr

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Rolls-Royce Trent 1000 N787RR by cactusbillaz, on Flickr
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:43 pm

Will there be any response from General Electric, e.g. a PIP3 for the GEnx-1B engine at the B787

Or will General counter with implementation of ceramic materials,( as planned for the GE-9X engines.) at the GEnx series.
See : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-well-for-777-9x-efficien-417477/
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 1):

Or will General counter with implementation of ceramic materials,( as planned for the GE-9X engines.) at the GEnx series.
See : http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-well-for-777-9x-efficien-417477/

Any idea what parts GE has in mind for ceramics? I'd say not the fan, as ceramics are far too brittle for that application. If it's compressor disks, then a PIP to implement them would require an engine overhaul...
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Stitch
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 1):
Will there be any response from General Electric, e.g. a PIP3 for the GEnx-1B engine at the B787.
GE has mumbled about it, but they're within contractual guarantees with PiP2.
Next 787 PIP's? (by justloveplanes Oct 12 2015 in Tech Ops)

[Edited 2015-10-20 14:54:28]
 
kurtverbose
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 1):
Will there be any response from General Electric

Rolls has 60% market share....according to Rolls.

Some very selective stats there, but clearly Rolls is fighting back.
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 4):
Rolls has 60% market share....according to Rolls.

Acccording GE the GEnx-1B has also 60% market share :

See the press release at the 1000th produced GEnx engine : http://geaviation.wpengine.com/ge-av...-rolls-out-its-1000th-genx-engine/
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 5):

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 4):
Rolls has 60% market share....according to Rolls.

Acccording GE the GEnx-1B has also 60% market share :

Well, it's a huge market...   
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:39 pm

Both engine makers put out dodgy stats.

In the end, the market knows and the market picks the winner.

Early winner was the GENX. Rolls is certainly fighting back though. How will it end? Need to wait 10 years or so. Maybe it'll be like the 777, or maybe it'll be like the A330.

As a side show, the only other application for the GENX was the 748, which was some 500 engines (roughly). The only other application for the Trent 1000 is the A330NEO (the 7000 is essentially the same engine), be interesting to see how many of those they sell. Airbus predicts some 1000 orders - hmm maybe.

Overall, on the widebody market I think I'd prefer to be RR rather than GE. On the narrow body market GE have the most profitable 50% share of 75% of the market.
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:37 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Looks like the first T1000-TEN engine will fly very soon.

OMG that's an awesome looking engine in that picture!

But also OMG there's an awful lot of bright work on the outside of that engine, not very buttoned-up looking!

I noticed the same thing back in 2011 when I visited KPAE and they had T1000 side by side with GEnX:

GEnX:

http://i59.tinypic.com/24dih41.jpg

T1000:

http://i61.tinypic.com/282ef.jpg
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:39 am

I'm curious about how these engines are flight-tested. Especially since this one is so close to the ground.

I'm assuming all four engines are started up normally prior to commencing the take-off roll. The three 744 engines are run up to full T/O thrust while the engine being tested is left at idle, or do they balance the thrust and use the in-testing engine as a fourth 744 engine?

Once the testbed has taken off, the engine being tested is run through the various tests scheduled for that flight.

What happens if the single 744 engine on the same wing as the test engine fails past V1? Do they run up the test engine to equivalent thrust to complete a 3-engine takeoff or do they risk aborting? Or is the aircraft sufficiently light that they can accomplish a takeoff with just two engines? In the greater trade-offs in life, damaging a test engine with FOD is lower cost than trying to abort and running the aircraft off the end of the runway and potentially costing the lives of all on board.
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 5:29 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9):

That's a great question! I want to know the same answers. I wonder what the SOP is in this situation. Engine testing is quite the process so you'd think they would have something on the books to react to an engine failure. My first thought is that the engine seems quite low to the ground. Do they have to get a special exemption for this aircraft? Is there any special procedure for FOD compared to a "normal" 747?
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:03 am

The thrust has to be relatively balanced for take off, ie you can't set 3 engines at TO thrust as it's below Vmcg.

I imagine it's similar to a 3 engine ferry technique, 1 & 4 brought up to TO thrust #3 is brought up slowly as the aircraft accelerates to reach TO thrust once above Vmcg.

If using the test engine then the performance crew would probably give details on what thrust to set the test engine at to simulate an approximate thrust equal to the remaining engines, once again it may be a delayed thrust setting due to FOD.

The runway would have been carefully inspected I'm sure.
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:44 am

Quoting FlyBoy747 (Reply 10):
Do they have to get a special exemption for this aircraft? Is there any special procedure for FOD compared to a "normal" 747?

On the A340 engine testing aircraft, they simply had a higher tire pressure in the wheels next to the big engine. That way, the plane was little bit titled... and the big engine had a little more ground clearance.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2u7yps9.jpg


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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:58 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Looks like the first T1000-TEN engine will fly very soon. Spotters have caught the engine during mounting on the RR 747 testbed:

Just beautiful photographs.....Thank You, Karel!

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 2):
Any idea what parts GE has in mind for ceramics? I'd say not the fan, as ceramics are far too brittle for that application. If it's compressor disks, then a PIP to implement them would require an engine overhaul...

Ceramic matrix composites (CMCs) materials technology for the jet engines is inteded to replace the certain metal components in the hot section of the engine. Replacing the certain metal components in the hot section of the engine by those made of the CMC material brings a lot of advantages to the engine. CMC material itself, made as strong as the metal, at the same time beeing much lighter, and withstanding higher temperatures, allows lower fuel burn and the lower emissions of NOx and CO, while increasing the efficiency of the engine. This material can withstand some 110-170°C (200-300ºF) higher temperatures compared to the ceramic coated nickel/titanium super-alloys. Combined with a new swirl pattern and increased air volume through the combustor, it eliminates the need for the cooling bleeds. The higher temperature capability and simpler component´s cooling requirements allow a more spacious combustor design so it can be run more efficiently. Less cooling flow to the component enables more HPC´s flow to be put into the combustion process through the combustor mixing nozzles. Present-day metal parts of the HPTs need extensive amount of the cooling air, directly taken from the primary engine airflow (LPC and HPC), thus reducing engine´s SFC, CR, OPR and TIT. CMCs can operate with the much less or even no cooling, providing a significant efficiency boost to the cycle and simplifying a complex cooling system of the engine´s hot sections. CMCs, also one-third the weight of the nickel, deliver a truly revolutionary leap in temperature capability, beyond any advanced metal alloy and its durability has been already proven through the significant testing in the GE´s aeroderivative gas turbine engines. The biggest benefit of CMCs is in the significant weight savings they can give, as well as CFRP fan blades and Ti-Al HPC´s and LPT´s blades.
While I would not dare to say that the was, for the last decades, at the forefront in the development of the turbofan engines in the sense of particular technical and design solutions, but when it comes to the development of the advanced materials, especially for the turbine applications, the GE´s invention of the Rene-family of nickel-based super-alloys led to continuous improvement in the engines´ temperature capabilities, the same way as the thermal barrier coatings and internal cooling system were delivering incremental improvements in the engines´ efficiency ...
The main advantage of using CMC materials is not in enabling higher peak cycle temperatures of the engine, but in the improving cycle efficiency, and that, by reducing the thermal losses caused by the bringing the compressed air into the hot sections of the engine. The peak combustion cycle temperatures in commercial TFs are currently limited by NOx formation, and NOx compounds only form in the presence of too high amount of the oxygen at the front of the flame and with the temperatures greater than some 1.560°C (2.800°F). In the order for the combustion system to operate with the lowest emissions, it must operate at a specific flame temperature, balancing the generation of NOx with the generation of CO. This is very difficult to achieve if the fuel and the air are injected directly into the combustion chamber, and therefore a pre-mixing of the fuel and the air has to be accomplished just to create a uniform mixture that, once it enters the combustion chamber, is ideal for complete low emissions combustion.
This technology is still pretty new and yet some work has to be done with the regards to CMCs parts reliability and durability, quality control of the engine´s parts in their production as and in-service non-destructive inspection of the most sensitive engines´ parts. CMCs will also play a key role in the performance of . LEAP turbofan engines…

Quoting 747classic (Reply 1):
Or will General counter with implementation of ceramic materials,( as planned for the GE-9X engines.) at the GEnx series.

Specifically, the GE9X engine will incorporate a new disc alloy in the last stage of the HPC and in the first of the 2-stage HPT. Both HPT´s stages will be air-cooled, while the second stage will incorporate a new blade design. CMC material will be used for the first-stage nozzle guide vanes and the shroud, the second-stage nozzles as well as for the inner and outer combustion liners (TAPS 3 combustion liner has no air dilution holes like previous generation combustors). The lightweight LPT´s blades will be made of TiAl, but I do not exclude a possibility that the 1st-stage HPT´s blades could be also made of CMC material. Compared to the CR of 19:1 on the GE90-115 engine and 23:1 on the 10-stage HPC unit in the GEnx-1B / 2B engine, GE9X compressor (11-stage HPC) pressure ratio will be 27:1, raising TIT by around 100 degrees.

A lot of that depend whether the CMC material will be used, in addition to the above mentioned parts, and in the design of the HPT´s blades. In any case I do expect GE9X engine will need cooling, but much less in comparison with the GE90 or GEnx-1B / 2B engines. A great care must be also taken in the preventing of surface damage of low-stress static components like combustion liners, shrouds and guided nozzle vanes, and not to mention those highly-stressed dynamic components like HPT´s blades, so the application of the appropriate environmental barrier coating (EBC) for the mentioned parts is of the crucial importance…

Assuming that the LPC´s (3-stage booster) geometry of the GE9X engine will remain unchanged (somehow, I expect GE9X engine to have scaled-down core´s geometry in compare with the GE90 engine), it is, due to the larger 134˝ fan with the fewer (16) and thinner blades with the more sweep and wider chord, compared to the 128˝ fan with the 22 blades, realistic to expect GE9X engine to have higher BPR than the GE90 engine, making it even more efficient and significantly quieter…

Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
But also OMG there's an awful lot of bright work on the outside of that engine, not very buttoned-up looking!

Definitely! And it is clearly visible how much attention has been paid to the details and quality of workmanship...

Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
I noticed the same thing back in 2011 when I visited KPAE and they had T1000 side by side with GEnX:

These excellent photographs very clearly reveal a quite different approach to the development and the production of the engines.... You know what, Revelation? Next time when You will go to KPAE, we go together. I´ll come to Your place with the new Lufthansa´s Boeing 707 MAX, and for further, we will see...

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9):
I'm curious about how these engines are flight-tested. Especially since this one is so close to the ground.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 12):
On the A340 engine testing aircraft, they simply had a higher tire pressure in the wheels next to the big engine. That way, the plane was little bit titled... and the big engine had a little more ground clearance.

Yes, it is quite differently to fly the . Trent XWB (118" fan) on the Airbus A380 than the . Trent 1000 (112" fan) on the Boeing 747-267B. This reminded me, as it did and David, how the . Trent 900 engine (116" fan) was tested on the Airbus A340-311, F-WWAI ...

http://imagehosting.io/images/2015/10/22/RWTrent900.jpg

http://imagehosting.io/images/2015/10/22/Silnik.jpg

.
Boeing 747-267B test aircraft, reg. N787RR, powered by single . Trent 1000 prototype engine and three . RB211-524D4 three-shaft turbofans, during its testing at TUS, on 10. Jun 2013...




Nice regards

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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting mfranjic (Reply 13):
These excellent photographs very clearly reveal a quite different approach to the development and the production of the engines.... You know what, Revelation? Next time when You will go to KPAE, we go together. I´ll come to Your place with the new Lufthansa´s Boeing 707 MAX, and for further, we will see...

That sounds like a great plan! I have been fortunate enough to visit KPAE in the 90s in the early days of the 777, and again more recently in the early days of the 747-8 and 787. I suppose the next visit should be in the early days of the 777X when we can have a beautiful GE-9X on a stand for our own close inspection.

Quoting mfranjic (Reply 13):
This reminded me, as it did and David, how the . Trent 900 engine (116" fan) was tested on the Airbus A340-311, F-WWAI ...

Awesome photograph -- thanks!   
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:45 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
But also OMG there's an awful lot of bright work on the outside of that engine, not very buttoned-up looking!

Rolls engines from the RB211 on have always looked different to GE and PW big fans.
Rolls mounts the gearbox and nearly all the accessories on the fan case, whereas GE mounts the oil tank on the fan case and everything else on the core engine.
Working on Line Maintenance, I much prefer the RR design. We can open up the fan cowls only for 99pc of Line work. On the GE you need to open up the C ducts (big and heavy) much more often.
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9):
What happens if the single 744 engine on the same wing as the test engine fails past V1? Do they run up the test engine to equivalent thrust to complete a 3-engine takeoff or do they risk aborting? Or is the aircraft sufficiently light that they can accomplish a takeoff with just two engines? In the greater trade-offs in life, damaging a test engine with FOD is lower cost than trying to abort and running the aircraft off the end of the runway and potentially costing the lives of all on board.

Another huge issue for the test airframe is going to be that the rather large fan diameter is going to create higher drag in the event that the test engine fails or is shut down in flight...probably much higher drag than the "normal" engine  
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:54 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 16):
Another huge issue for the test airframe is going to be that the rather large fan diameter is going to create higher drag in the event that the test engine fails or is shut down in flight...probably much higher drag than the "normal" engine

OTOH, the test aircraft will probably be very light, so induced drag will be much lower than for a normal grossed-out 742.
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:12 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 15):
Working on Line Maintenance, I much prefer the RR design. We can open up the fan cowls only for 99pc of Line work. On the GE you need to open up the C ducts (big and heavy) much more often.

Very good point -- thanks for posting!
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kurtverbose
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:53 am

I think the XWB-97 has flown on the A380 test aircraft today. Anyone have a pic?
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:33 am

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 19):
XWB-97 has flown on the A380 test aircraft today
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F8zPaOY7rWw/VjzdRFDXl8I/AAAAAAAAfHs/7kxl8ug3MS0/s1600/A350_1000%2Bengine%2Btestbed%2B5Nov15.jpg
Jambrain
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Wed Mar 23, 2016 10:43 am

 
flipdewaf
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:52 pm

Quoting Jambrain (Reply 20):

Just another 3 required and we can have an A380 STO L
Image
 
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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:54 am

Flown

Quote:
The engine’s first flight was on a Boeing 747 flying test bed which took off from an airfield in Tucson, Arizona, US. A distinctive paint scheme on the engine nacelle - depicting a ‘perfect ten pin’ bowling image - easily identified the Trent 1000 TEN engine on the aircraft
http://www.rolls-royce.com/products-...s/trent-1000/programme-update.aspx

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RE: RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:37 am

Love the livery on the cowling.
 
lowbank
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RR Prepares T1000-TEN First Flight

Fri Mar 25, 2016 12:49 pm

First flight took place this week, another major milestone achieved.

http://www.rolls-royce.com/products-and ... pdate.aspx
Last edited by KarelXWB on Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed title
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tortugamon
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:11 pm

I thought the Trent TEN was due to enter service his year.

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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:17 pm

For the orders with announced engine pairings, RR Trent is losing to GEnx 41-59%. Can we call it a success ?
 
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:08 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):

For the orders with announced engine pairings, RR Trent is losing to GEnx 41-59%. Can we call it a success ?

Well obviously, you dont! But you make 0 effort to justify what is otherwise a rather juvenile comment, and don't even offer the factual source of your %ages nor of the duration over which your orders have been achieved. Perhaps a new engine has less orders than an older one for other reasons!

41% of any sales market is a failure, in your view? In a market with 2 suppliers, at what %age does one supplier cross from "failure" to "success"? I'm really interested to allow you to follow through your thought process and demonstrate it to all of us here

Edit spelling errors

[Edited 2016-03-25 09:18:09]
 
lowbank
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:30 pm

I believe there was a significant difference in SFC between the two engine, the ten addresses that issue. So maybe it will start to pick up more orders now.
I have a chart which unfortunately I cannot share which details its entry into service. I will have a look.
Type certification is planned for 2nd quarter of 2016.
Looks like a short type cert program.
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a380787
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:40 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 3):

Well obviously, you dont! But you make 0 effort to justify what is otherwise a rather juvenile comment, and don't even offer the factual source of your %ages nor of the duration over which your orders have been achieved. Perhaps a new engine has less orders than an older one for other reasons!

41% of any sales market is a failure, in your view? In a market with 2 suppliers, at what %age does one supplier cross from "failure" to "success"? I'm really interested to allow you to follow through your though process and demonstrate it to all of us here

I didn't call it a failure, but if the assumption is that both engines are not far from each other in terms of SFC (give or take), a 18pt difference is sales can be significant - unless RR is discounting less aggressively as GE (due to their exclusive contract with A350/Trent XWB)

Recall back in the 77E/333 days, Trent 700 on the 333 sold well in a 3-way race while Trent 800 on the 77E sold reasonably well in a 3-way race too (except that shocker BA initial order for GE90). 77W/77X/346/350/330neo are all single-engine offerings so those figures are meaningless to include and discuss.

If you actually bother looking at the list instead of your condescending tone, most of the Top 10 volume orders, sans NH+BA, were either split or exclusive GEnx. In terms of US3, most of UA+AA's fleets will be GE, while DL's yet-to-be-delivered smaller order of 18 frames are RR .... for now.

Whether it's "sucess" or "slightly less successful" is subjective, but the fact we observe is that Trent 700/800 did well in 3-way races but Trent 1000 is doing less spectacularly in a 2-way one. The T800 sales were acceptable considering the GE90 had a meaningfully higher bypass ratio.
 
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:29 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
For the orders with announced engine pairings, RR Trent is losing to GEnx 41-59%. Can we call it a success ?

Have you had a look at the trend at all?
The T1000 was getting caned in early 787 sales.
41% suggests that it has been doing much better recently with the introduction of the upgrades.

Rgds
 
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:55 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 6):

Well, that's the thing. The gap is closing, but the question is whether it has arrived in time to achieve eventual equilibrium against GEnx. The heavy assumptions are : 1. Existing orders convert over, 2. strong future 78J sales at the expense of 789, and 3. the engine-undeclared will be selecting RR en masse.

ps : im a RR fan, so I genuinely want them to do well.
 
WIederling
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:33 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 6):

could we say that GenX sold well until actual flying was done?
 
apropos: do we still see engine roll backs on the 787?
( what I remember it appeared to not be manufacturer dependent.)
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 7):
Well, that's the thing. The gap is closing, but the question is whether it has arrived in time to achieve eventual equilibrium against GEnx.

I've no idea. But I suspect the 787 will be selling for a long time ...  

Rgds
 
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:42 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 9):
I've no idea. But I suspect the 787 will be selling for a long time ...  

I sincerely hope so too. I haven't tried the A350 personally so I should withhold judgement, but the 787 standalone is very fine.
 
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:09 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
I didn't call it a failure

Really? Did you read your own post before you wrote that?

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
If you actually bother looking at the list instead of your condescending tone, most of the Top 10 volume orders, sans NH+BA, were either split or exclusive GEnx. In terms of US3, most of UA+AA's fleets will be GE, while DL's yet-to-be-delivered smaller order of 18 frames are RR .... for now.

Quite surprised at your response. I have no engine preference to sell here, I just called out someone who seemed to have wayward mathematics and strange criteria for success or failure

I always attempt to avoid "attitude" in my posts, and am quite alarmed at your detection of condescension in what I wrote! No condescension intended

Declaring "the winner" at the start of the race is always a dangerous strategy!
 
a380787
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:22 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 11):

Quite surprised at your response. I have no engine preference to sell here, I just called out someone who seemed to have wayward mathematics and strange criteria for success or failure

I always attempt to avoid "attitude" in my posts, and am quite alarmed at your detection of condescension in what I wrote! No condescension intended

Declaring "the winner" at the start of the race is always a dangerous strategy!

Agreed there's no "winner" until the race is over, but as the race stands today, there's work cut out for the TEN and a gap to close. Maybe "success" was a poor word choice, but they're "behind".

There's inertia that cannot be properly modeled. If a fleet is already heavily invested in GEnx, the airline might be less inclined to start all over again and end up with dual fleets for the sake of 2% SFC gain or what not. Inertia alone might rule out a lot of the smaller order sizes. e.g. splitting 20 frames into 10 GE + 10 RR makes little sense. Any predictions for this aspect is a pure guess.

Another caveat is not to use just the latest few sales and project a straight-line trajectory of where future sales might end up to be. GE might also have a PIP up their sleeves to ensure GEnx continues to outperform the TEN, and they also might discount more aggressively to bring Total-cost-of-ownership (TCO) equal or lower once you factor in the SFC deficiency.

Yes early sales favored GE, yes recent sales favored RR, but since this is an ongoing race, neither can be used to project the future without multiple heavy assumptions.
 
jacobin777
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:26 pm

From the article:

"Capable of up to 78,000lbs thrust it will be available to power all three variants of the Boeing 787: the -8, -9 and future -10."

Isn't this something that EK's Clark is/was concerned regarding "not enough thrust" for our needs regarding the B787-10?
"Up the Irons!"
 
tommy1808
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 7):
strong future 78J

Funny thing...
By his logic the RR would be a failuresk product for having less the 50% of the 787 market.
If EK's regional order goes to Boeing the ratio is going to change, if it goes to Airbus it isn't. But either way RR is going to sell Trents...


Market share is nit a very good measure for success because it is too easy to define the market in a way that gives you the winner you want.
Like, if you look at the 250 to 350 seat market, I think the RR Trent will have quite the nice share.

Best regards
Thomas
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rutankrd
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:30 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
except that shocker BA initial order for GE90

That was not shocker but part of a larger deal which involved BA SELLING out their engine servicing business at the time based in Wales to GE.

The quid pro was the receipt of earlier 77E models with GE motors attached.

Other than the leased sole supplier 77W aircraft BA remain pretty much RR on wide body fleet purchases

As for big engines many choose rather complex power by hour and other similar after sales packages.
 
a380787
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:41 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 13):

"Capable of up to 78,000lbs thrust it will be available to power all three variants of the Boeing 787: the -8, -9 and future -10."

Isn't this something that EK's Clark is/was concerned regarding "not enough thrust" for our needs regarding the B787-10?

I recall the existing T1000 goes up to 76K, so this delivers 2.6% thrust improvement? Who knows if that's enough for EK.

The current 788 engines only call for 64K thrust ... would it need to be paper de-rated here (if at all) ?

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 15):

That was not shocker but part of a larger deal which involved BA SELLING out their engine servicing business at the time based in Wales to GE.

It was a shocker because BA has been fervently loyal to RR for decades (747, 767, you name it), sometimes possibly even electing for loyalty over the most optimal solution. RR had a crude awakening circa 96-97 to find out they actually have to start competing for BA's business. The sale you mentioned might've been the extra carrot from GE to entice them over.

RR can take some solace that BA's 787s and 380s are entirely (?) powered by RR. BA's previous loyalty to RR can be compared to PMUA's loyalty to PW. (obviously 77W are GE90-115 exclusive)
 
AirbusA6
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:05 pm

GE had a significant lead on the early 787 sales, which Rolls has been slowly closing having done significant upgrades since the early engines, but GE still has significantly more sales.

Not that Rolls will be that worried, seeing that they have a monopoly on the A350 and A330neo PLUS are seemingly the only player for a A380neo (if that ever happens).

With GE's greater share on the 787. plus exclusivity on the 748 and 777x, both manufacturers have plenty of future work to get on with!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:03 am

Do we have 'winners and losers' in a two way competition where both players have significant market share?

Coke or Pepsi anyone?
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
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PM
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:54 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
Trent 800 on the 77E sold reasonably well in a 3-way race too

I'd say better than "reasonably well" since it comfortably outsold each of the other two on the 772/77E/773 prior to GE exclusivity: RR 39.6%, PW 30.5%, GE 29.8%. And if you really want to limit things to the 77E, RR was still the biggest seller.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 16):
It was a shocker

It was indeed. I still remember where I was (Zurich) when I bought an FT and read the news. I had to sit down and drink strong coffee.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
RR Trent is losing to GEnx 41-59%

Which, rather freakishly, is EXACTLY the difference between PW and RR on the 757: 41.2% to 58.8%. Coincidence...? YOU decide!
 
lowbank
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:27 am

Well the real reason for that shocker was BA had an a big problem ( was never told what the problem was) and the CEO of BA rang RR late on Friday afternoon. The person who answered that call was unhelpful at best and put the phone down on the CEO of BA.
Wrong answer in any business, we had several mandatory training course after that. Whilst the issue was corrected. Thankfully a situation like that should not happen today. Company was a very different place then.
Every days a school day.
 
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jambrain
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:13 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 14):
Like, if you look at the 250 to 350 seat market, I think the RR Trent will have quite the nice share.

If you look at the whole wide-body market RR / GE must be close to 50:50 delivered in the next couple of years, RR will pull ahead as 787 shares close, A350 and A330NEO rates improve and RR gain the EK 380s.

Dare I suggest, as 777 declines for a period RR will lead the WB market until (if?) 777X rate increases back to classic levels again!

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 17):
With GE's greater share on the 787. plus exclusivity on the 748 and 777x, both manufacturers have plenty of future work to get on with!

The Trent / GExx ranges seems to have seen off P&W for a decade (will EA or P&W sell another civil wide-body engine before 2025?).
Jambrain
 
AirbusA6
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:23 am

Quoting PM (Reply 19):
Quoting a380787 (Reply 16):
It was a shocker

It was indeed. I still remember where I was (Zurich) when I bought an FT and read the news. I had to sit down and drink strong coffee.

Indeed for a short time, losing the 777 order to GE was seen as questioning RR's whole future in the big fan market.

"If not even BA are choosing RR engines, then why should anyone else"
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
queb
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:47 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 1):
I thought the Trent TEN was due to enter service his year.

tortugamon

but now EIS is planned for mid-2017. Don't know why.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...787-engine-upgrade-to-2017-423434/

[Edited 2016-03-26 11:47:27]

[Edited 2016-03-26 11:50:33]
 
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PM
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RE: First Flight Of T1000-ten

Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:31 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 22):
Indeed for a short time, losing the 777 order to GE was seen as questioning RR's whole future in the big fan market.

"If not even BA are choosing RR engines, then why should anyone else"

...which is exactly what ANA said and changed their plan to buy RR in favour of PW.  

My recollection is that it was a Thai order for Trent 800s that steadied the ship and by the time RR landed the huge SQ order everyone could breathe a sigh of relief.

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