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Veigar
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Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 2:24 am

I have heard more in favor of the M10 not needing it, but how about the M7? I assume it has to do with the lengths of the aircraft.
 
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zeke
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 2:50 am

I would assume they all have it. The updated version was tested by Boeing on a MAX 7.
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Elshad
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 11:27 am

I would assume the MAX 7 needs it the most and the MAX 10 the least, due to length counteracting nose-up attitude etc.
 
mmo
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 8:07 pm

Actually, none of the Max family needs it. It was added to allow pilots to have an easier transition from the Steam gauge and Classic as far as flight characteristics go.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 8:16 pm

mmo wrote:
Actually, none of the Max family needs it. It was added to allow pilots to have an easier transition from the Steam gauge and Classic as far as flight characteristics go.


Wow, I don't know where you came up with that idea? Don't intend to debate this topic anymore but while your premise is correct, it is needed. I'll let it go at that. I woould have expected much better from you.
 
stratclub
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 8:44 pm

Actually, it was a very big deal for Boeing and the airlines. The concept was that pilots could fly the max using the same airman's rating as flying any other 737. For the airlines, that meant that they would not have to have an additional airman's rating for their pilots for the MAX. MCAS in theory made the MAX have the same flight characteristics as earlier (Jurassic, Classic and NG) 737's.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 9:12 pm

Maneuver Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS)

The larger diameter LEAP-1B engines on the 737 MAX degrade high-speed pitch up
characteristics compared to the 737 NG. The MCAS control law, along with a revised
vortex generator pattern, were added to the MAX to provide approach-to-stall feel forces
consistent with those required in AC 25-7B. Everything else is fluff. The fact that SWA and
Boeing marketing worked to minimize the required training as refleted in Stratclub's explanation,
is incidental to the final MCAS design.
 
stratclub
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 10:15 pm

@Brave One. As a non pilot, It would be great to know more about MCAS from a pilots point of view.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 20, 2019 11:28 pm

stratclub wrote:
@Brave One. As a non pilot, It would be great to know more about MCAS from a pilots point of view.


Well like so many other talking heads, I have never flown the 737MAX or even the NG so I would be a poor point of reference regarding these flying qualities. The last 737 I flew was the Jurasic 737-200, not even the -200 Advanced. According to the then Boeing Chief Technical pilot, it fly's just like the NG, but that was before the MX related accidents so you can take that with a grain of salt at this hour. I'm sure you can tell the difference between the -800 NG and the MAX.

RedBelly (SWA), is the only pilot I know here on this site that has personal knowledge of the 737 MAX in airline service, but he seems to be lying low during Sh&%t storm. To bad.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 12:33 am

BravoOne wrote:
mmo wrote:
Actually, none of the Max family needs it. It was added to allow pilots to have an easier transition from the Steam gauge and Classic as far as flight characteristics go.


Wow, I don't know where you came up with that idea? Don't intend to debate this topic anymore but while your premise is correct, it is needed. I'll let it go at that. I woould have expected much better from you.


Actually this isn’t really true and is yet another of the many misconceptions of MCAS all over the media.

MCAS was added to meet S&C (Stability and Control) Certification requirements for Stall ID in a region when you are approaching a stall. It wasn’t designed for solely commonality or training differences.

It’s also not an “Anti-Stall” system as incorrectly stated all over. It’s not intended to prevent a stall. It’s intended to smooth out some handling characteristics in the region prior to a stall to meet S&C requirements.
 
mmo
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 7:44 am

BravoOne wrote:
mmo wrote:
Actually, none of the Max family needs it. It was added to allow pilots to have an easier transition from the Steam gauge and Classic as far as flight characteristics go.


Wow, I don't know where you came up with that idea? Don't intend to debate this topic anymore but while your premise is correct, it is needed. I'll let it go at that. I woould have expected much better from you.


I would suggest you do a little research.

https://aviationweek.com/commercial-avi ... -explained

http://www.b737.org.uk/mcas.htm

But, as a nonpilot, I am not surprised by your off the cuff remarks
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BravoOne
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 1:21 pm

My answer came directly from the Boeing CSID (Crew Systems Inteface Document) Sorry if it does not fit your mental picture of how and why this system works. Inspite of the MCAS debacle, I respect the Boeing flight control team more that your sources which BTW, I have not bothered to read yet.

Non Pilot? 26000+ plus hours and typed in every Boeing except the 747. Get off your high horse.
 
stratclub
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 2:22 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
mmo wrote:
Actually, none of the Max family needs it. It was added to allow pilots to have an easier transition from the Steam gauge and Classic as far as flight characteristics go.


Wow, I don't know where you came up with that idea? Don't intend to debate this topic anymore but while your premise is correct, it is needed. I'll let it go at that. I woould have expected much better from you.


Actually this isn’t really true and is yet another of the many misconceptions of MCAS all over the media.

MCAS was added to meet S&C (Stability and Control) Certification requirements for Stall ID in a region when you are approaching a stall. It wasn’t designed for solely commonality or training differences.

It’s also not an “Anti-Stall” system as incorrectly stated all over. It’s not intended to prevent a stall. It’s intended to smooth out some handling characteristics in the region prior to a stall to meet S&C requirements.

O.K. So I got sucked in by the media reports and commonality for training purposes is more so just a bonus. Is that correct?

Something I was curious about is with Lion Air, if the crew had went bact to flaps one (at the appropriate airspeed), would that have taken MCAS out of the picture while still allowing electric trim and made the AOA disagree easier to deal with? Being familiar with Boeing systems as an AMT that does sound reasonable to me.
Last edited by stratclub on Tue May 21, 2019 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 2:25 pm

stratclub wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

Wow, I don't know where you came up with that idea? Don't intend to debate this topic anymore but while your premise is correct, it is needed. I'll let it go at that. I woould have expected much better from you.


Actually this isn’t really true and is yet another of the many misconceptions of MCAS all over the media.

MCAS was added to meet S&C (Stability and Control) Certification requirements for Stall ID in a region when you are approaching a stall. It wasn’t designed for solely commonality or training differences.

It’s also not an “Anti-Stall” system as incorrectly stated all over. It’s not intended to prevent a stall. It’s intended to smooth out some handling characteristics in the region prior to a stall to meet S&C requirements.

O.K. So I got sucked in by the media reports and commonality for training purposes is more so just a bonus. Is that correct?

Something I was curious about is with Lion Air, if the crew had went bact to flaps one (at the appropriate airspeed), would that have taken MCAS out of the picture and made the AOA disagree easier to deal with? Being familiar with Boeing systems as an AMT that does sound reasonable to me.


That’s correct. There is lots of false and distorted information reported all over the media (and A.net).

MCAS does not function if the flaps are out of up. Yes, it would have disabled at Flaps 1.
 
mmo
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 3:59 pm

BravoOne wrote:
My answer came directly from the Boeing CSID (Crew Systems Inteface Document) Sorry if it does not fit your mental picture of how and why this system works. Inspite of the MCAS debacle, I respect the Boeing flight control team more that your sources which BTW, I have not bothered to read yet.

Non Pilot? 26000+ plus hours and typed in every Boeing except the 747. Get off your high horse.


Got you beat. Typed on all Boeings from the 727, All 747 777 and787, but not the light twin, plus military time, plus the 320 family. And my horse is very low.

I would suggest you read them, the words are pretty small. You read the system's description which is relatively to understand and comprehend.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 4:40 pm

mmo wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
My answer came directly from the Boeing CSID (Crew Systems Inteface Document) Sorry if it does not fit your mental picture of how and why this system works. Inspite of the MCAS debacle, I respect the Boeing flight control team more that your sources which BTW, I have not bothered to read yet.

Non Pilot? 26000+ plus hours and typed in every Boeing except the 747. Get off your high horse.


Got you beat. Typed on all Boeings from the 727, All 747 777 and787, but not the light twin, plus military time, plus the 320 family. And my horse is very low.

I would suggest you read them, the words are pretty small. You read the system's description which is relatively to understand and comprehend.



Thanks for your comments & insults. Please carry on....
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 5:19 pm

mmo wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
My answer came directly from the Boeing CSID (Crew Systems Inteface Document) Sorry if it does not fit your mental picture of how and why this system works. Inspite of the MCAS debacle, I respect the Boeing flight control team more that your sources which BTW, I have not bothered to read yet.

Non Pilot? 26000+ plus hours and typed in every Boeing except the 747. Get off your high horse.


Got you beat. Typed on all Boeings from the 727, All 747 777 and787, but not the light twin, plus military time, plus the 320 family. And my horse is very low.

I would suggest you read them, the words are pretty small. You read the system's description which is relatively to understand and comprehend.


Read my response as to why MCAS was developed. If I’m understanding this debate correctly, B1 is correct.

MCAS was developed to meet an S&C requirement, not to minimize training differences.
 
mmo
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 7:52 pm

You might want to read this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan ... dec6c440aa

The MCAS wasn't a mandatory fix, there were other fixes available. What it did do was make the 737 Max fly like the NG and other models. There were other options but it could have presented a training issue and may have required a new type certificate.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 8:30 pm

The MAX 10 will not have MCAS installed. It was never needed and not designed to have it either. Nothing related to the MAX 8/9 issues. That comes from inside Boeing. Not sure about the MAX 7 as I will not fly that version.
 
e38
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 9:07 pm

this is an interesting discussion about MCAS.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply # 12), "26000+ plus hours and typed in every Boeing except the 747." and
Quoting mmo (Reply # 15), "Typed on all Boeings from the 727, All 747 777 and787 . . ."

Wow, that is absolutely impressive! I'm speechless and in awe. Just one question; however, which one of you invented Aviation?

e38
 
BravoOne
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 11:35 pm

e38 wrote:
this is an interesting discussion about MCAS.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply # 12), "26000+ plus hours and typed in every Boeing except the 747." and
Quoting mmo (Reply # 15), "Typed on all Boeings from the 727, All 747 777 and787 . . ."

Wow, that is absolutely impressive! I'm speechless and in awe. Just one question; however, which one of you invented Aviation?

e38



Get grip on yourself. My reply was to MMO suggestion that I was a NON PILOT, nothing more. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit?
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Tue May 21, 2019 11:57 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
The MAX 10 will not have MCAS installed. It was never needed and not designed to have it either.

Why is that.
Captain Kevin
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Wed May 22, 2019 4:56 am

Avgeek21 wrote:
The MAX 10 will not have MCAS installed. It was never needed and not designed to have it either. Nothing related to the MAX 8/9 issues. That comes from inside Boeing. Not sure about the MAX 7 as I will not fly that version.


What is your source on this please?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Wed May 22, 2019 4:58 am

mmo wrote:
You might want to read this.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan ... dec6c440aa

The MCAS wasn't a mandatory fix, there were other fixes available. What it did do was make the 737 Max fly like the NG and other models. There were other options but it could have presented a training issue and may have required a new type certificate.


I personally don’t have to read what an MIT guy writes about MCAS. I’ve been in internal briefings where experts who actually know the facts a lot more than you and the media do have presented information about it.

To be fair, this was certainly a much better and more accurate article than so much of the non-factual garbage in the media and other A.net threads about the situation though.
 
triple3driver
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Wed May 22, 2019 6:12 pm

I would guess that all 4 models would have it installed, if nothing else than simply for commonality. I mean, the difference in length doesn't make enough of a difference IMO for the 10 to not have it, they still have the same engines and aerodynamic properties so it will still experience the same stall characteristics.
I have no special talents, just a passion for flying
 
IADFCO
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Wed May 22, 2019 10:47 pm

The problem is that none of the information about what MCAS is supposed to do, and what happens if it's turned off, none of it, is based on objective facts. Has anybody seen a plot that shows how pitching moment changes with stick force, for example? I'm not talking about good guesses, qualitative guesses, I've seen those, I'm talking about the real plot.

Or, a time history of alpha, pitch angle, and vertical velocity, following step inputs of different magnitude that progressively take the aircraft in the stall region? Nobody knows (outside Boeing, that is) what the MAX does, with MCAS off.

So, any answer to the OP's question must be qualified by a "based on what Boeing says" (which is preciously little), or "based on what people outside of Boeing understand". The MIT professor quoted in the Fortune article is exactly in the same boat, and in fact he carefully qualifies his answers.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Thu May 23, 2019 11:24 pm

stratclub wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

Wow, I don't know where you came up with that idea? Don't intend to debate this topic anymore but while your premise is correct, it is needed. I'll let it go at that. I woould have expected much better from you.


Actually this isn’t really true and is yet another of the many misconceptions of MCAS all over the media.

MCAS was added to meet S&C (Stability and Control) Certification requirements for Stall ID in a region when you are approaching a stall. It wasn’t designed for solely commonality or training differences.

It’s also not an “Anti-Stall” system as incorrectly stated all over. It’s not intended to prevent a stall. It’s intended to smooth out some handling characteristics in the region prior to a stall to meet S&C requirements.

O.K. So I got sucked in by the media reports and commonality for training purposes is more so just a bonus. Is that correct?

Something I was curious about is with Lion Air, if the crew had went bact to flaps one (at the appropriate airspeed), would that have taken MCAS out of the picture while still allowing electric trim and made the AOA disagree easier to deal with? Being familiar with Boeing systems as an AMT that does sound reasonable to me.

HAD Lion Air's 737 Max equipped with the Angle of Attack Indicators in the EHSI? The Pilots would have known in an instant what the problem was had the airplane HAD an Angle of Attack indication... also? Boeing "Flubbed the Dub" When the attached the MCAS to a single Lousy AOA vane where they should have had 3 vanes acting in comparison. I know they're fixing the problem But they "screwed the Pooch" in the engineering of that system as they didn't DO all they could and should have from the Beginning as all the indications should have been Standard Equipment!! All for the sake of a couple of Bucks!! So How much are they Losing NOW?? SO? A couple of Bucks doesn't seem like so much now does it??
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Fri May 24, 2019 12:11 am

strfyr51 wrote:
HAD Lion Air's 737 Max equipped with the Angle of Attack Indicators in the EHSI? The Pilots would have known in an instant what the problem was had the airplane HAD an Angle of Attack indication... also? Boeing "Flubbed the Dub" When the attached the MCAS to a single Lousy AOA vane where they should have had 3 vanes acting in comparison. I know they're fixing the problem But they "screwed the Pooch" in the engineering of that system as they didn't DO all they could and should have from the Beginning as all the indications should have been Standard Equipment!! All for the sake of a couple of Bucks!! So How much are they Losing NOW?? SO? A couple of Bucks doesn't seem like so much now does it??


Most airlines didn't/won't purchase the optional AOA indicator (it's still optional) because they don't want the expense of training their aircrews in it's operation and most commercial airlines don't have it now.

AA has had it in all their new airplanes since their first 777 (which was the first 777 with an AOA indicator installed) because their pilots who had a say in what to install in the airplane had previously used the AOA indicator flying in the military and felt it provided an extra margin of safety, especially when dealing with unreliable airspeed issues.

As for the AOA DISAGREE alert, which will now be standard (just to make everybody feel better), all that does is tell you that you may have an IAS DISGREE alert and/or an ALTITUDE DISAGREE alert -- there are no "steps" on that particular NNC (Non Normal Checklist). Both crews probably would have noticed the IAS DISAGREE alert and not even bothered with the AOA DISAGREE alert had it been there. Since there are 3 airspeed indicators and 3 altimeters you don't need 3 AOA vanes to get the job done (unless you have an AOA indicator).
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Fri May 24, 2019 12:37 am

strfyr51 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Actually this isn’t really true and is yet another of the many misconceptions of MCAS all over the media.

MCAS was added to meet S&C (Stability and Control) Certification requirements for Stall ID in a region when you are approaching a stall. It wasn’t designed for solely commonality or training differences.

It’s also not an “Anti-Stall” system as incorrectly stated all over. It’s not intended to prevent a stall. It’s intended to smooth out some handling characteristics in the region prior to a stall to meet S&C requirements.

O.K. So I got sucked in by the media reports and commonality for training purposes is more so just a bonus. Is that correct?

Something I was curious about is with Lion Air, if the crew had went bact to flaps one (at the appropriate airspeed), would that have taken MCAS out of the picture while still allowing electric trim and made the AOA disagree easier to deal with? Being familiar with Boeing systems as an AMT that does sound reasonable to me.

HAD Lion Air's 737 Max equipped with the Angle of Attack Indicators in the EHSI? The Pilots would have known in an instant what the problem was had the airplane HAD an Angle of Attack indication... also? Boeing "Flubbed the Dub" When the attached the MCAS to a single Lousy AOA vane where they should have had 3 vanes acting in comparison. I know they're fixing the problem But they "screwed the Pooch" in the engineering of that system as they didn't DO all they could and should have from the Beginning as all the indications should have been Standard Equipment!! All for the sake of a couple of Bucks!! So How much are they Losing NOW?? SO? A couple of Bucks doesn't seem like so much now does it??


As usual, over dramatization and misinformation.

First, the reason the AOA indicator is optional is because most airlines DON’T WANT IT. Boeing keeps it as an option for a few airlines who want it such as AA and DL.

Many airlines don’t have a need for at and don’t want to train it. At one time, if a customer wanted it, Boeing’s Chief Pilot required that the customer Chief Pilot call him so they could discuss it.

That’s why the indicators are not basic. Has nothing to do with saving a couple of lousy bucks as you completely falsely accuse. You might want to check your facts or have some actual knowledge of a subject before you throw out false accusations.

Second, every Boeing airplane only has two AOA vanes, not three. Like it or not, the 737 architecture was developed in a different era. It follows those design philosophies. The 777X has a very different architecture with redundancy and voting.

Very little of your over dramatic rant is even factually correct.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Fri May 24, 2019 1:54 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Actually this isn’t really true and is yet another of the many misconceptions of MCAS all over the media.

MCAS was added to meet S&C (Stability and Control) Certification requirements for Stall ID in a region when you are approaching a stall. It wasn’t designed for solely commonality or training differences.

It’s also not an “Anti-Stall” system as incorrectly stated all over. It’s not intended to prevent a stall. It’s intended to smooth out some handling characteristics in the region prior to a stall to meet S&C requirements.

O.K. So I got sucked in by the media reports and commonality for training purposes is more so just a bonus. Is that correct?

Something I was curious about is with Lion Air, if the crew had went bact to flaps one (at the appropriate airspeed), would that have taken MCAS out of the picture while still allowing electric trim and made the AOA disagree easier to deal with? Being familiar with Boeing systems as an AMT that does sound reasonable to me.

HAD Lion Air's 737 Max equipped with the Angle of Attack Indicators in the EHSI? The Pilots would have known in an instant what the problem was had the airplane HAD an Angle of Attack indication... also? Boeing "Flubbed the Dub" When the attached the MCAS to a single Lousy AOA vane where they should have had 3 vanes acting in comparison. I know they're fixing the problem But they "screwed the Pooch" in the engineering of that system as they didn't DO all they could and should have from the Beginning as all the indications should have been Standard Equipment!! All for the sake of a couple of Bucks!! So How much are they Losing NOW?? SO? A couple of Bucks doesn't seem like so much now does it??



This post would look best on the front page of the National Enquirer. Nothing new to report and as others have stated the AOA indicator has been available for sometime on Boeing aircraft. The cost for this option is/was $7,800 so it certainly was not cost prohibitive on a new airplane. I don't believe there are any published procedures for this option. Sort of like the GRID option for polar ops.
 
stratclub
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Fri May 24, 2019 2:57 pm

BravoOne wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
stratclub wrote:
O.K. So I got sucked in by the media reports and commonality for training purposes is more so just a bonus. Is that correct?

Something I was curious about is with Lion Air, if the crew had went bact to flaps one (at the appropriate airspeed), would that have taken MCAS out of the picture while still allowing electric trim and made the AOA disagree easier to deal with? Being familiar with Boeing systems as an AMT that does sound reasonable to me.

HAD Lion Air's 737 Max equipped with the Angle of Attack Indicators in the EHSI? The Pilots would have known in an instant what the problem was had the airplane HAD an Angle of Attack indication... also? Boeing "Flubbed the Dub" When the attached the MCAS to a single Lousy AOA vane where they should have had 3 vanes acting in comparison. I know they're fixing the problem But they "screwed the Pooch" in the engineering of that system as they didn't DO all they could and should have from the Beginning as all the indications should have been Standard Equipment!! All for the sake of a couple of Bucks!! So How much are they Losing NOW?? SO? A couple of Bucks doesn't seem like so much now does it??



This post would look best on the front page of the National Enquirer. Nothing new to report and as others have stated the AOA indicator has been available for sometime on Boeing aircraft. The cost for this option is/was $7,800 so it certainly was not cost prohibitive on a new airplane. I don't believe there are any published procedures for this option. Sort of like the GRID option for polar ops.

Certainly Boeing screwed the pouch on this one. But was it criminal or just a horrific engineering/marketing blunder? It certainly is unfortunate that the MCAS flaws that let to the crash were not found in the simulator.

Even 2 AOA vanes that could have shut down MCAS if there was a disagree would seem like a minimum requirement and like you said 3 would have been an even a better idea. The possibility of 2 AOA vanes failing at the same time I would think would be astronomical
 
BravoOne
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Fri May 24, 2019 3:13 pm

Of course you realize that MCAS was not a part of any MAX simulator emulation tp begin with?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Fri May 24, 2019 4:49 pm

stratclub wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
HAD Lion Air's 737 Max equipped with the Angle of Attack Indicators in the EHSI? The Pilots would have known in an instant what the problem was had the airplane HAD an Angle of Attack indication... also? Boeing "Flubbed the Dub" When the attached the MCAS to a single Lousy AOA vane where they should have had 3 vanes acting in comparison. I know they're fixing the problem But they "screwed the Pooch" in the engineering of that system as they didn't DO all they could and should have from the Beginning as all the indications should have been Standard Equipment!! All for the sake of a couple of Bucks!! So How much are they Losing NOW?? SO? A couple of Bucks doesn't seem like so much now does it??



This post would look best on the front page of the National Enquirer. Nothing new to report and as others have stated the AOA indicator has been available for sometime on Boeing aircraft. The cost for this option is/was $7,800 so it certainly was not cost prohibitive on a new airplane. I don't believe there are any published procedures for this option. Sort of like the GRID option for polar ops.

Certainly Boeing screwed the pouch on this one. But was it criminal or just a horrific engineering/marketing blunder? It certainly is unfortunate that the MCAS flaws that let to the crash were not found in the simulator.

Even 2 AOA vanes that could have shut down MCAS if there was a disagree would seem like a minimum requirement and like you said 3 would have been an even a better idea. The possibility of 2 AOA vanes failing at the same time I would think would be astronomical


More misinformation and distorted facts (as usual on this topic).

It was discovered that the forces on the manual trim wheel were not modeled correctly in the ET scenario. This was also in part because they were inexplicably at full takeoff power and incredibly high speed.

It’s not the MCAS system modeling that was incorrectly.

The AOA logic you suggest is in fact part of the new design.
 
AirBoat
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:58 am

Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 27, 2019 6:55 pm

Can someone confirm the following:
MCAS only operates approaching stall. therefore for the rest of the flight envelope it does nothing.
Should it not be called 'Approaching stall help system'
Then if it does nothing for the rest of the flight envelope, how can it make the plane feel the same as a NG or 800.
Is there any MCAS related activity fed from the flight computer to the elevator that causes higher yoke forces in the normal flight envelope? As I understand it the elevators are hydraulically actuated so the feel should be the same whatever the speed. I noticed on the elevator system diagram there is a FEEL and Centering system which controls required yoke force.

I would also like to know if trim is used to balance the aircraft and not as some people have suggested to reduce yoke forces. This is as I was trained on a pa28 Cherokee.
Should the manual hand trim wheel be usable through the whole flight envelope? This rollercoaster manoeuvre that some talk about to reduce yoke forces to enable the trim wheel to be used is a workaround and should not be necessary.
rgds
 
DenverTed
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 27, 2019 7:09 pm

AirBoat wrote:
Should it not be called 'Approaching stall help system'

High AOA, longitudinal stability, restoring moment turbo boost system.

I assume that at some configurations of nose up stab and elevator, when pitched up more, the aircraft didn't return to that configuration fast enough, which I assume is that for that exact configuration, the restoring moment versus AOA curve crosses the neutral axis at that exact angle. As it proceeds to higher angle, it is a very low slope that doesn't produce enough restoring force per increase in angle.

To fix that, either provide a bigger stabilizer, or an autopilot to move the elevators or stab. Since they already had a stab autopilot system, that seems like the logical fix.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 19216
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: Do the MAX 7 and 10 require MCAS?

Mon May 27, 2019 11:44 pm

AirBoat wrote:
Can someone confirm the following:
MCAS only operates approaching stall. therefore for the rest of the flight envelope it does nothing.
Should it not be called 'Approaching stall help system'
Then if it does nothing for the rest of the flight envelope, how can it make the plane feel the same as a NG or 800.
Is there any MCAS related activity fed from the flight computer to the elevator that causes higher yoke forces in the normal flight envelope? As I understand it the elevators are hydraulically actuated so the feel should be the same whatever the speed. I noticed on the elevator system diagram there is a FEEL and Centering system which controls required yoke force.

I would also like to know if trim is used to balance the aircraft and not as some people have suggested to reduce yoke forces. This is as I was trained on a pa28 Cherokee.
Should the manual hand trim wheel be usable through the whole flight envelope? This rollercoaster manoeuvre that some talk about to reduce yoke forces to enable the trim wheel to be used is a workaround and should not be necessary.
rgds


The objective of MCAS was to make the aircraft behave like an NG in that particular part of the envelope where it is active. (The 800 is one of the NG models.)

While the elevators are hydraulically activated, artificial feel is introduced. So the feel is not the same regardless of speed.

Your trim comment seems to be delving in semantics. Trim is definitely used to reduce yoke forces. It does this by balancing the aircraft, which reduces yoke forces. In your PA-28, if you have to hold the yoke forward or back just to maintain level, you would trim to reduce the force required.

The manual trim wheels are available throughout because the stabiliser is always moveable.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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