What are the chances that a single-engine pilot could land a 707?

rjsampson · Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:52 pm

Apologies if this has been asked before, but here's the scenario: The captain, FO, and FE have all succumbed to severe food poisoning. A doctor on board confirms that half of the passengers also have the same condition, and the flight must land ASAP. The only passenger with flight experience on board is an ex-military pilot whose experience is only in single-engine fighters.

Especially without a Flight Engineer, what is the likelihood the pilot could land a 707? In the tower, there's an experienced 707 pilot talking him down, using the autopilot. Also, once in the airport's airspace, the Tower controller has also succumbed, because he's been sniffing glue.

How likely is it that this pilot could land the plane? Since there aren't likely 707 pilots here, perhaps some of the 727 pilots or others with experience in aircraft with Flight Engineers could chime in.

BravoOne · Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:34 pm

Very unlikely IMO, but what the heck it might make for a good movie.

Starlionblue · Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:39 pm

Fast jet pilot? Certainly much better equipped for the job than a single engine piston PPL. At least he's used to speed and turbines and complex systems. He knows how to fly using pitch and power. Inertia awareness would be an issue but maybe with a long final.

trpmb6 · Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:50 pm

I think one of the biggest challenges is having to re-inflate the autopilot and not being able to speak Jive.

DALMD80 · Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:51 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Very unlikely IMO, but what the heck it might make for a good movie.

Hmmm... Sounds quite a lot like the plot of AIRPLANE.

stratclub · Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:10 pm

I'm not a pilot but have operated systems on most Boeing turbine powered aircraft and I think it would be very doable. If the aircraft was on auto pilot, an experienced jet fighter pilot would have time and would know were to look in the flight manual for appropriate flight perimeters such as V speeds and flap extension speeds. Plus he would declare Mayday and have assistance from the ground that might even be someone having or had a type rating in a 707.

I don't think not having an F/O or Flight Engineer would necasarily prevent him from landing successfully baring any system failures if the flight engineers panel was set up correctly prior to the Flight Engineer being incapacitated. The only exception that could bite him would be fuel management and pressurization which he could be coached about from the ground.

Might not be the best landing ever, but if everyone walks away from it, it still is a good landing.

RetiredWeasel · Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:18 pm

As one who had never flown anything larger than an F-4, I had very little trouble in my first landing a B-727 from the right seat in a simulator when upgrading from the FE position after 2 years. Of course I had the benefit of knowing the airspeeds, flap operation, gear ops etc before actually putting my hands on a yoke.

I feel confident that an experienced fighter pilot, if given the numbers over the radio, could land a large aircraft like the 707. Might not be a 'good' landing but I think everybody would walk away. 1,2,3 or 4 throttles (thrust levers)...? As long as they were all running, you just had to make your hand a little wider.

Woodreau · Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:29 pm

stratclub wrote:
If the aircraft was on auto pilot, an experienced jet fighter pilot would have time and would know were to look in the flight manual for appropriate flight perimeters such as V speeds and flap extension speeds.

to get to the flight manual he'd have to get the code from one of the pilots to unlock one of the ipads before it's locked for 23,768,738 minutes (about 45 years) before the next unlock attempt as there are no paper manuals left in the flight deck.

BravoOne · Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:15 pm

Must be a lot of Walter Mitty's hanging out around this website:)

rjsampson · Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:22 pm

DALMD80 wrote:
Hmmm... Sounds quite a lot like the plot of AIRPLANE.

I wasn't aware that there was a movie with this scenario... I just made this up as a thought experiment. I also forgot to mention that the controller had been drinking and taking amphetamines on the job. Sniffing the glue finally took him out.

Woodreau wrote:
to get to the flight manual he'd have to get the code from one of the pilots to unlock one of the ipads before it's locked for 23,768,738 minutes (about 45 years) before the next unlock attempt as there are no paper manuals left in the flight deck.

Let's say that this was occurring in the year 1980. The pilots have already been incapacitated, and dragged to the back of the plane (in front of the passengers, no less), so the passengers are pretty panicked. So the consensus would be the pilot most likely could land the 707?

Yflyer · Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:15 pm

I don't know... that plane has four engines. It's an entirely different kind of flying altogether.

thepinkmachine · Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:51 pm

FWIW, as a new PPL, I was able to quite decently fly a 767 simulator.

The flying part isn’t that different from a small plane, you just need to be a bit smoother on the controls.

This was however under supervision of a qualified pilot and after several hours on the jumpseat observing - so I kinda knew the call outs, flight patterns etc.

rjsampson · Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:41 pm

Yflyer wrote:
I don't know... that plane has four engines. It's an entirely different kind of flying altogether.

It's an entirely different kind of flying.

stratclub · Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:50 pm

Woodreau wrote:
stratclub wrote:
If the aircraft was on auto pilot, an experienced jet fighter pilot would have time and would know were to look in the flight manual for appropriate flight perimeters such as V speeds and flap extension speeds.

to get to the flight manual he'd have to get the code from one of the pilots to unlock one of the ipads before it's locked for 23,768,738 minutes (about 45 years) before the next unlock attempt as there are no paper manuals left in the flight deck.

I seriously doubt that any 707 had/have an electronic flight bag or even a digital flight manual since almost all of a 707's service life was before we even had the first I-pad in 2010. The fighter pilot would make sure the aircraft is flying straight and level on auto pilot and then grab the paper flight manual from it's cubby hole in the cockpit.

strfyr51 · Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:24 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Fast jet pilot? Certainly much better equipped for the job than a single engine piston PPL. At least he's used to speed and turbines and complex systems. He knows how to fly using pitch and power. Inertia awareness would be an issue but maybe with a long final.

It would have to be a damn long final of about 100 miles straight in. This was in a movie years ago with Glen Ford as an Airline training captain talking in a beech pilot flying a 707 or DC8. The Pilot got the airplane down and won the love of some Hot Blonde Stewardess. I want to say Elke Summer but I can't remember clearly.
Ford's wife was on the airplane and had left him a note the same day that she was leaving him for another man and he had intended to get drunk when they called him with the emergency as he lived close to the Airport. I want to say the title I can't remember, but I DO k..now it wasn't "Airport". My man George Kennedy wasn't in it

tjwgrr · Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:24 pm

DALMD80 wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Very unlikely IMO, but what the heck it might make for a good movie.

Hmmm... Sounds quite a lot like the plot of AIRPLANE.

SheikhDjibouti · Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:01 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Fast jet pilot? Certainly much better equipped for the job than a single engine piston PPL. At least he's used to speed and turbines and complex systems. He knows how to fly using pitch and power. Inertia awareness would be an issue but maybe with a long final.

It would have to be a damn long final of about 100 miles straight in. This was in a movie years ago with Glen Ford as an Airline training captain talking in a beech pilot flying a 707 or DC8. The Pilot got the airplane down and won the love of some Hot Blonde Stewardess. I want to say Elke Summer but I can't remember clearly.
Ford's wife was on the airplane and had left him a note the same day that she was leaving him for another man and he had intended to get drunk when they called him with the emergency as he lived close to the Airport. I want to say the title I can't remember, but I DO k..now it wasn't "Airport". My man George Kennedy wasn't in it

Take your pick from these; (p.s. Dana Andrews is your man; he looks like Glenn Ford's twin brother...)

Flight Into Danger (1956) written by Arthur Hailey; Canadair North Star, no talk-down from ATC though

Zero Hour (1957) written by Arthur Hailey, AA DC-7, Dana Andrews is the hero, and the storyline ticks all the boxes :bigthumbsup:

Terror in the Sky (1971) written by Arthur Hailey, at a wild guess probably a World Airways 707 with a cheap paint job, Doug McClure, and no ATC talk-down

Airport 1975 (1974 lol) based on the Arthur Hailey novel, featuring a 747, Charlton Heston, Dana Andrews (the hero from Zero Hour!), and a whole load of nonsense

And then there was
Airplane! (1980), not written by Arthur Hailey, but which borrowed the plot and central characters from Zero Hour!

I may have missed another version (or two) along the way, but it's late and I'm exhausted, and Shirley I've done enough already. :duck:

TSS · Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:52 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Fast jet pilot? Certainly much better equipped for the job than a single engine piston PPL. At least he's used to speed and turbines and complex systems. He knows how to fly using pitch and power. Inertia awareness would be an issue but maybe with a long final.

It would have to be a damn long final of about 100 miles straight in. This was in a movie years ago with Glen Ford as an Airline training captain talking in a beech pilot flying a 707 or DC8. The Pilot got the airplane down and won the love of some Hot Blonde Stewardess. I want to say Elke Summer but I can't remember clearly.
Ford's wife was on the airplane and had left him a note the same day that she was leaving him for another man and he had intended to get drunk when they called him with the emergency as he lived close to the Airport. I want to say the title I can't remember, but I DO k..now it wasn't "Airport". My man George Kennedy wasn't in it

Take your pick from these; (p.s. Dana Andrews is your man; he looks like Glenn Ford's twin brother...)

Flight Into Danger (1956) written by Arthur Hailey; Canadair North Star, no talk-down from ATC though

Zero Hour (1957) written by Arthur Hailey, AA DC-7, Dana Andrews is the hero, and the storyline ticks all the boxes

Terror in the Sky (1971) written by Arthur Hailey, at a wild guess probably a World Airways 707 with a cheap paint job, Doug McClure, and no ATC talk-down

Airport 1975 (1974 lol) based on the Arthur Hailey novel, featuring a 747, Charlton Heston, Dana Andrews (the hero from Zero Hour!), and a whole load of nonsense

And then there was
Airplane! (1980), not written by Arthur Hailey, but which borrowed the plot and central characters from Zero Hour!

I may have missed another version (or two) along the way, but it's late and I'm exhausted, and Shirley I've done enough already.

Airplane! also borrowed a LOT of dialogue word-for-word from Zero Hour! as well as the piston engine sound effect used whenever the 707 is seen in flight.

Max Q · Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:13 am

The 707 is no 727

Other than the rudder, all primary flight controls are unpowered, it is pretty heavy on the controls and there’s quite a bit of lag

There’s little clearance under the wings for the outboards so you’ll hit a pod unless your wings are almost level at touchdown

Heavy, lots of inertia, lots of work, an experienced pilot on a DC8 or 707 can
have their hands full on a gusty day

An inexperienced one, even ex military single engine would find it quite difficult

And don’t call me Shirley

BravoOne · Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:01 am

Max Q wrote:
The 707 is no 727

Other than the rudder, all primary flight controls are unpowered, it is pretty heavy on the controls and there’s quite a bit of lag

There’s little clearance under the wings for the outboards so you’ll hit a pod unless your wings are almost level at touchdown

Heavy, lots of inertia, lots of work, an experienced pilot on a DC8 or 707 can
have their hands full on a gusty day

An inexperienced one, even ex military single engine would find it quite difficult

And don’t call me Shirley

You nailed that one Max!

stratclub · Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:01 am

Given the criteria that any landing you can walk away from is a good landing, I don't see the problem.

Max Q · Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:24 am

BravoOne wrote:
Max Q wrote:
The 707 is no 727

Other than the rudder, all primary flight controls are unpowered, it is pretty heavy on the controls and there’s quite a bit of lag

There’s little clearance under the wings for the outboards so you’ll hit a pod unless your wings are almost level at touchdown

Heavy, lots of inertia, lots of work, an experienced pilot on a DC8 or 707 can
have their hands full on a gusty day

An inexperienced one, even ex military single engine would find it quite difficult

And don’t call me Shirley

You nailed that one Max!

Even a broken clock is right twice a day !

stratclub · Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:03 am

Max Q wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Max Q wrote:
The 707 is no 727

Other than the rudder, all primary flight controls are unpowered, it is pretty heavy on the controls and there’s quite a bit of lag

There’s little clearance under the wings for the outboards so you’ll hit a pod unless your wings are almost level at touchdown

Heavy, lots of inertia, lots of work, an experienced pilot on a DC8 or 707 can
have their hands full on a gusty day

An inexperienced one, even ex military single engine would find it quite difficult

And don’t call me Shirley

You nailed that one Max!

Even a broken clock is right twice a day !

Huh? why are you going completely off topic on such a straight forward topic? If you were inexperienced and trying to land a 707, a broken clock would be the least of your worries.

Starlionblue · Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:37 am

stratclub wrote:
Max Q wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

You nailed that one Max!

Even a broken clock is right twice a day !

Huh? why are you going completely off topic on such a straight forward topic? If you were inexperienced and trying to land a 707, a broken clock would be the least of your worries.

https://knowyourphrase.com/even-a-broken-clock-is-right-twice

Horstroad · Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:51 pm

Max Q wrote:
The 707 is no 727

Other than the rudder, all primary flight controls are unpowered, it is pretty heavy on the controls and there’s quite a bit of lag

There’s little clearance under the wings for the outboards so you’ll hit a pod unless your wings are almost level at touchdown

Heavy, lots of inertia, lots of work, an experienced pilot on a DC8 or 707 can
have their hands full on a gusty day

An inexperienced one, even ex military single engine would find it quite difficult

And don’t call me Shirley

What about the missing FE? Flying the airplane is one thing... but what about the aircraft systems? I don't think there was much automation. What could and couldn't be done from the L/H seat without a FE? Someone mentioned pressurization for example. Or fuel management.

LH707330 · Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:52 pm

I think Strat is rustling your jimmies on this one.

The 727 controls were created by an ex-Lockheed guy, there's a great section on it in Sutter's book "747."

BravoOne · Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:59 pm

Horstroad wrote:
Max Q wrote:
The 707 is no 727

Other than the rudder, all primary flight controls are unpowered, it is pretty heavy on the controls and there’s quite a bit of lag

There’s little clearance under the wings for the outboards so you’ll hit a pod unless your wings are almost level at touchdown

Heavy, lots of inertia, lots of work, an experienced pilot on a DC8 or 707 can
have their hands full on a gusty day

An inexperienced one, even ex military single engine would find it quite difficult

And don’t call me Shirley

What about the missing FE? Flying the airplane is one thing... but what about the aircraft systems? I don't think there was much automation. What could and couldn't be done from the L/H seat without a FE? Someone mentioned pressurization for example. Or fuel management.

The FE would be nice to have along but not absolutely necessary assuming the fuel was in balance to begin with. Not really that much required from the FE if all is working well to begin with. Pressurization might not be to smooth but then it wasn't that good when everything was working as designed from the get go. Some later 707's had an electro pneumatic system that worked pretty good with little attention from the FE.

IADCA · Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:02 pm

Assuming he's taken care of his drinking problem, he could probably land the plane safely, but the suicides of the passengers who sat next to him before he took the controls would still make the incident look a bit odd in retrospect. It'd make a better movie than one with gladiators, though.

stratclub · Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:34 pm

Horstroad wrote:
Max Q wrote:
The 707 is no 727

Other than the rudder, all primary flight controls are unpowered, it is pretty heavy on the controls and there’s quite a bit of lag

There’s little clearance under the wings for the outboards so you’ll hit a pod unless your wings are almost level at touchdown

Heavy, lots of inertia, lots of work, an experienced pilot on a DC8 or 707 can
have their hands full on a gusty day

An inexperienced one, even ex military single engine would find it quite difficult

And don’t call me Shirley

What about the missing FE? Flying the airplane is one thing... but what about the aircraft systems? I don't think there was much automation. What could and couldn't be done from the L/H seat without a FE? Someone mentioned pressurization for example. Or fuel management.

True, but you have to remember that the OP was talking a "what if" situation. Under no circumstance would you want to intentionally fly a 707 without an F/E, but we're talking about a situation were one isn't available. I'm just saying that if when the F/E became incapacitated all of the systems were functioning properly you could with fuel management and to a lesser extent pressurization being things that could bite you pretty hard if not managed properly.

And really, the landing doesn't have to be textbook perfect. A pilot's definition of a good landing is one that everyone walks away from uninjured.

chimborazo · Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:41 pm

Some folks on this board (and I think it’s generally obvious which country most hail from) need to understand that irony does not mean: “like iron.”

Agreed for Max Q on the good work.

YYZYYT · Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:56 pm

A fighter pilot land a 707? Surely you can't be serious.

YYZYYT · Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:13 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Airplane! (1980), not written by Arthur Hailey, but which borrowed the plot and central characters from Zero Hour!

TSS wrote:
Airplane! also borrowed a LOT of dialogue word-for-word from Zero Hour! as well as the piston engine sound effect used whenever the 707 is seen in flight.

I'd go even farther, it was a scene-by-scene remake (subject to some obvious additions), with humour coming from genious comedic delivery... for me that makes Airplane even funnier. There are many videos on Youtube that show a scene-by-scene comparison (just type in the two names).

Oh, and by the way Arthur Hailey wrote Zero Hour, so Airplane was written by him... in a manner of speaking.

Moose135 · Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:29 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
A fighter pilot land a 707? Surely you can't be serious.

It's just like riding a bike, only harder to put baseball cards in the spokes...

And don't call me Shirley!

BravoOne · Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:30 pm

rjsampson wrote:
Apologies if this has been asked before, but here's the scenario: The captain, FO, and FE have all succumbed to severe food poisoning. A doctor on board confirms that half of the passengers also have the same condition, and the flight must land ASAP. The only passenger with flight experience on board is an ex-military pilot whose experience is only in single-engine fighters.

Especially without a Flight Engineer, what is the likelihood the pilot could land a 707? In the tower, there's an experienced 707 pilot talking him down, using the autopilot. Also, once in the airport's airspace, the Tower controller has also succumbed, because he's been sniffing glue.

How likely is it that this pilot could land the plane? Since there aren't likely 707 pilots here, perhaps some of the 727 pilots or others with experience in aircraft with Flight Engineers could chime in.

Actually I reread your post and I have extensive experience on the 707/720B, Starting as Nav 2nd Officer, FE 2nd Officer, First Officer and Briefly Captain. I'll stick by my original post that says the likelihood of a ex military/averge time civilian pilot making a successful landing without any previous 707 exposure is pretty slim. The 707 was not hard to fly but it was not a 727 either, and the autopilot was pretty much worthless for any kind of approach and no landing capability at all. There was a reason these pilots were pretty good sticks as they did a lot of hand flying during climbs and descents.

Not saying you would wind up in a ball of fire but it would not be pretty either.

Seabear · Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:45 pm

"I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you."

RetiredWeasel · Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:44 pm

Since this is just an exercise in fantasy, here's my additional 2 cents:

After my first post, I remembered my initial 2 day major airline interview process. Having no transport experience whatsoever, hundreds of us fighter pilots during the 80s were were put into a simulator (mine was a 747-2) and observed how we handled some maneuvers to include a visual landing and as I recall an ILS using the flight director. Never heard of any of my peers or others crashing the sim after the instructor/evaluator told us the speeds and flap settings. Might have had a hard landing or bounced a bit but no simulated injuries. Wasn't that difficult after 2 to 4000 hours of flying similar speeds and hundreds of approaches and landings in smaller jets.

I have never flown a B-707, so if it was more difficult to fly than a 747 then it might have added to complications.

BravoOne · Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:22 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
Since this is just an exercise in fantasy, here's my additional 2 cents:

After my first post, I remembered my initial 2 day major airline interview process. Having no transport experience whatsoever, hundreds of us fighter pilots during the 80s were were put into a simulator (mine was a 747-2) and observed how we handled some maneuvers to include a visual landing and as I recall an ILS using the flight director. Never heard of any of my peers or others crashing the sim after the instructor/evaluator told us the speeds and flap settings. Might have had a hard landing or bounced a bit but no simulated injuries. Wasn't that difficult after 2 to 4000 hours of flying similar speeds and hundreds of approaches and landings in smaller jets.

I have never flown a B-707, so if it was more difficult to fly than a 747 then it might have added to complications.

Neither aircraft was that hard to fly with proper training and I have never flown the 747 other than the sim with a qualified IP in the right seat. Point is that without some guidance you are not going to be the hero one might be hoping for. A bounced landing can turn into a ball of shXX in a nano second for the untrained.

DashTrash · Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:37 am

Ted Stryker did it, but he had to concentrate....concentrate....concentrate....

“Pinch hitting for Pedro Borbon..... Manny Mota...Mota...Mota...

To the OP, I’m sure we’re all sorry for the “Airplane” references. If you haven’t seen the movie yet, go find it somewhere and prepare to laugh til it hurts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rjsampson · Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:51 pm

DashTrash wrote:
To the OP, I’m sure we’re all sorry for the “Airplane” references. If you haven’t seen the movie yet, go find it somewhere and prepare to laugh til it hurts.

No apologies, that was actually kind of the point. To see if that scenario could actually play out in real life, and have a few laughs doing it. Believe me, I couldn't make up a scenario if I tried, especially with ATC drinking, doing amphetamines, and sniffing glue

Seems like a lot of the people responding haven't seen the film though... To your point, if anyone here doesn't get the jokes, you must absolutely see the movie. I mean, after a rough landing that knocks the gear out from a 707, could it potentially take off again? Assuming everything else is working (yes, that happens).

Chemist · Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:18 am

Actually the movie Airplane! and before that Zero Hour was based upon Runway 08 by Arthur Hailey. The same fish food poisoning and a layperson trying to land the plane. Except the book wasn't a comedy.

atomicstar · Thu May 09, 2019 2:24 am

I’m now thinking about this. How difficult is it to land a 707 with only one pilot? Since I am considering the fact that a 707 needs a pilot to control the engine systems and some other systems (flight engineer).

And then, to talk down land with someone who isn’t experienced with flying a airliner, I would say the chance of successful emergency landing a complicated airplane (707) would probably be 50%. And after I saw this video, it makes me think of how much complicated it would be to talk down land with no flight management system computer that modern airliners do.

BravoOne · Thu May 09, 2019 1:52 pm

Other than dialing down the pressurization system to landing field elevation there is not a lot of man/machine interface on the FE panel. Your ears might not like it, but it wouldn't kill you either. Fuel, hydraulics and electrics should be okay unless there was a glitch. Good luck cause your'e going to need some.

stratclub · Thu May 09, 2019 6:34 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Other than dialing down the pressurization system to landing field elevation there is not a lot of man/machine interface on the FE panel. Your ears might not like it, but it wouldn't kill you either. Fuel, hydraulics and electrics should be okay unless there was a glitch. Good luck cause your'e going to need some.

Well that and making sure fuel management is copasetic for the remainder of the flight. Stuff like fuel balance and making sure the boost pumps are showing pressure.

BravoOne · Thu May 09, 2019 8:23 pm

stratclub wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Other than dialing down the pressurization system to landing field elevation there is not a lot of man/machine interface on the FE panel. Your ears might not like it, but it wouldn't kill you either. Fuel, hydraulics and electrics should be okay unless there was a glitch. Good luck cause your'e going to need some.

Well that and making sure fuel management is copasetic for the remainder of the flight. Stuff like fuel balance and making sure the boost pumps are showing pressure.

Well if the pump were not pressurizing the system you would have some bright orange lights in your face and there is nothing you could do about it other than opening a cross feed. At best a risky action unless you knew exactly what you were doing. Might be bad a to open all the cross feeds? I think is way beyond the scope of a single pilot operation in the 707.

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