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CaptnSnow71
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Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:53 am

For those who have flown them - we are talking anything from regional jets to the mighty 747. What does it feel like to control the aircraft via the yoke or sidestick, as compared to something like a C172? Does the operation feel heavy and unresponsive?

For those who've flown multiple types - are there certain aircraft that have handled better or worse? Do smaller jets handle more responsively than larger ones? Does Boeing's FBW aircraft feel similar to their conventional systems? How do sidesticks stack up to conventional yokes?

A lot of questions, I know. Just very curious! I've only had, and probably only ever will have, experience on small piston driven aircraft. Thanks in advance to your responses! :wave:
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:20 am

Not so much heavy as dull. Hydraulic controls have artificial feel systems which imitate your 172, but never duplicate the closeness one has with direct cables. The F-100 was light as a feather and as responsive as a T-38. The A-10 less so. The C-5 was a baby carriage once you overcame the initial breakout forces, think a minor notch, especially on the ailerons. Easier than the Challenger 600-series including the CRJ was a truck with a similar notchiness on break out of neutral. The Global was better than the Challenger, but not as nice as the C-5 with its power steering. None are like a Champ. It’s the difference between power steering in a Cadillac and manual steering on an early Porsche.

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Starlionblue
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:29 am

Change of attitude vs change of direction: The crucial difference in big jets is the greater inertia. While pitch and roll can be changed rather rapidly, any change in actual trajectory takes longer than in a light piston. For example in a go-around after a couple of seconds in the C172 you're climbing. It takes a bit more time to convince a big jet to change direction. As GalaxyFlyer puts it above, "Not so much heavy as dull."


Heaviness of controls: Light pistons like a C172 can take a bit of muscle effort depending on the situation. For example a steep turn requires holding back on the yoke for some time with a decent bit of force until/unless you trim it out. Moreover, response is not consistent across the speed range. Since there is no speed compensation, slower flight requires larger control movements for the same trajectory change.

From that perspective, a A330 is a piece of cake. A stick deflection always requires the same force. There is resistance but it won't make your arm tired. A given pitch deflection always gives the same load factor regardless of speed. A given roll deflection always gives the same roll rate regardless of speed. Up to 33 degrees roll you don't even have to put in back pressure as the aircraft trims itself. Very intuitive. (Caveat: given Normal Law.)

I've only been in a 747 sim a couple of times. I found it much heavier in roll than the A330, and lighter in pitch. Just habit I suppose. Again, though, control forces are not greater than on a C172. It is all nicely balanced.


Response to power changes is a different story. Push the throttle full forward on a 172 and you pretty much instantly get full power. Do the same with the thrust levers on a A330, and it will take several seconds to get full thrust. This is one of the reasons that on approach in a big jet it is discouraged to make rapid thrust changes. Set... wait... adjust as needed... wait...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Redbellyguppy
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:46 am

The 737 is like driving an old Cadillac or pickup. Loosely goosed but deliberate too. I greatly enjoy Hand flying it.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:55 am

As far as sidestick on Airbuses go, (at least on 320s anyway) you just point the nose where you want it and once you get it to where you want you just let go. The aircraft attitude will stay there until you move the side stick again. The only time you feel "heaviness" with a stidestick is executing a go around after you touchdown. The horizontal stab trim automatically resets to zero after touchdown, so when you pull back on the sidestick to go around, you really have to pull the stick back "a lot more" than you normally would to get the nose off the ground until the autotrim gets the plane back into trim for the go-around.

The inertial range of an airliner is a lot greater than the inertial range on a 172. With a 172 you just control the elevator and trim the elevator trim tab to cover the 80kt range between 40 - 120kts. On an airliner your yoke/sidestick controls just the tiny elevator, but trim the entire horizontal stab to cover the 250kt range between 100 to ~350kts..

The elevator on an Embraer 145 is totally manual, no hydraulics involved, just like a 172, so the slower the plane is flying, the more you have to move the elevator to get the pitch to change. When the airplane is on the ground, the elevator is held by an electro-hydraulic gust lock. It's removed just before you take the runway and locked right after exiting the runway after landing. It's pretty dangerous on a gusty windy day to not have someone holding the yoke with the gust lock removed. The yoke would pistol-whip you quicker than you would blink an eye. There have been rare instances where some crews have tried to takeoff with the elevator gust lock still installed - they just don't get very far.
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Faro
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:54 am

Similar thread in A.net somewhere in here...maybe 6 years ago or so...I can recall tons of praise for the L1011...and that the 767 is very sensitive in roll...look for it somewhere in here...


Faro
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CaptnSnow71
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:58 am

Thanks everyone for the responses, definitely has enlightened me. "Loosely goosed" has to be my favorite description of... pretty much anything ever.
 
747Whale
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:09 am

Large airplanes are chiefly about energy management, and are flown by numbers rather than actual feel. That said, I hand fly most approaches and all landings, and usually hand fly up to RVSM airspace (or higher). I prefer it.

I've flown large airplanes that were all direct cable (WWII era airplanes) through fly by wire; all are a bit different, and the direct cable airplanes had the highest handling workload (engine-out work with an outboard engine windmilling required about 75 lbs of rudder force, and a 2-3 hour checkride would have us coming back with our legs physically shaking and our flight suits soaked in sweat).

As others noted, most large aircraft have artificial feel to give the pilot a sense of feedback (though it's not real) through the controls; pull back and it gets heavier on the control column the more you pull back, and at higher speeds. It replicates what the pilot might feel, if there were some way to actually have a feel of the flight controls. Most large airplanes, except pure fly by wire, use control cables to hydraulic actuators, and there's no feel to it at all, except what the manufacturer builds in. I didn't think twice about it in the 747 Classic, until once in the sim when the artificial feel was switched off. I found that incredibly challenging; difficult. Scary, really. I didn't realize until that moment just how much I took the artificial feel for granted.
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:12 pm

What I can add is that most airliners’ flight controls are quite sensitive and powerful compared a C172. You fly them with much smaller inputs than on GA aircraft. Also, higher speeds means little pitch changes result in large VS changes, so manual handling has to be more precise.

Changes in pitch as small as 0.5 degree make quite a bit of difference, while on the 172 they would be barely noticeable.

All in all, however, airliners are generally pleasure to hand fly, especially jets. Turboprops like ATR/Q400 are actually a bit more difficult to land, but turboprop guys get to practice more often, so they tend get good at it pretty quickly :)
 
B777LRF
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:32 pm

The most responsive and well-balanced aircraft I've ever flown is the Falcon 900. It really does think it's a fighter jet, yet is as stable as a slab of concrete on a flat surface.

The 727 was a bit of a hog, heavy and not overtly responsive, whereas the 757 was a delight to manhandle. I've only flown a 747 (-400) in the sim, and it felt just like a 757 with a couple of extra throttle levers.

Never been exposed to FBW, but would love to take Falcon 7X up for a spin.
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stratclub
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:01 pm

I flew a 777 in the simulator and understand the inertia thing. Almost sluggish but small inputs were all you really needed once you understood the inertia of such a big object. In 2 landings I only lost the plane twice. :banghead:
 
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:03 am

The 737 was the most responsive and fun to fly. The 747 (all models) is a truck. The 777 inspite of its size was just like a 757, fairly light.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:30 am

I've brought this up before: So many YouTube videos from the cockpit during takeoff show the PF using 2 hands on the Yoke during rotation. I've never understood this. Makes me wonder if certain aircraft are indeed "heavier" on the controls. Or maybe (as a previous instructor once told me), they just have weak arms. He had a much more colorful phrase for that, which cannot be posted :)

?
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
747Whale
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:09 am

rjsampson wrote:
I've brought this up before: So many YouTube videos from the cockpit during takeoff show the PF using 2 hands on the Yoke during rotation. I've never understood this. Makes me wonder if certain aircraft are indeed "heavier" on the controls. Or maybe (as a previous instructor once told me), they just have weak arms. He had a much more colorful phrase for that, which cannot be posted :)

?


During takeoff, one hand is on the control wheel, and the other is on the power levers. At the refusal speed, "V1," the hand comes off the throttle and on the control wheel. The point of doing this is a commitment to the takeoff; rejecting the takeoff is no longer an option, and typically both hands are on the control wheel. It's not because it's too heavy to move.

The pitch trim is set for takeoff; it's one of the parameters that's necessary to satisfy, based on a calculated value, for each takeoff. It's part of the takeoff and landing data (TOLD data) calculated for each takeoff, along with speeds, distances, climb rates with all engines and one engine out, etc.
 
Max Q
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:21 am

B777LRF wrote:
The most responsive and well-balanced aircraft I've ever flown is the Falcon 900. It really does think it's a fighter jet, yet is as stable as a slab of concrete on a flat surface.

The 727 was a bit of a hog, heavy and not overtly responsive, whereas the 757 was a delight to manhandle. I've only flown a 747 (-400) in the sim, and it felt just like a 757 with a couple of extra throttle levers.

Never been exposed to FBW, but would love to take Falcon 7X up for a spin.




First time I’ve heard anyone criticize the handling of the 727


I flew it for six years and think it was and still is the best flying narrowbody aircraft ever made, beautifully stable, yet very responsive and went through turbulence like a hot knife through butter


Ive flown the 757-200 for a lot longer and it doesn’t come close, it’s unresponsive, sluggish in roll and has a ‘dead spot’ in pitch, when you rotate nothing happens at first then it responds with an abrupt pitch up.



On landing as you’re lowering the nose
it’s easy to run out of elevator authority and it will slam down, there’s been a few 752’s
seriously damaged due to this trait, it also has a terrible ride in turbulence


Good aircraft, lots of performance and good systems but kind of a truck to fly


On the other hand the 757-300 is a delight
to fly with none of those vices and all the
767 variants are even nicer than that, very good, Pilots aircraft.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:56 am

CaptnSnow71 wrote:
For those who have flown them - we are talking anything from regional jets to the mighty 747. What does it feel like to control the aircraft via the yoke or sidestick, as compared to something like a C172? Does the operation feel heavy and unresponsive?


For the ATR:
The 42 feels almost exactly like a C172, nice and light. Always a joy to fly. The 72 feels like a dump-truck. The ATR was not designed with the stretch in mind.
The ATR doesn't have any control augmentation of any sort, so it's just the pilot pulling the controls directly through the control cables. It also has oversized elevators and undersized ailerons.

Landing is, as mentioned, trickier on turboprops than in jets. For a starter, we fly the approach with a nose-down attitude. This means more input to flare the aircraft properly (but avoid too much input, as the elevators are oversized). To complicate things, the high wing means that we don't get cushioned by the ground-effect, so you really need to continue to "fly" the aircraft on to the runway.

Another point to consider is the condition and age of the aircraft. Brand-new out of the factory, the controls feel much lighter and uniform. On a worn out old aircraft, especially if maintenance hasn't been stellar, they tend to feel more stiff and heavy, and they all feel different. In the worst cases, you need both hands to turn the aircraft. Absolute worst I experienced was when the auto-pilot actuators jammed on an already pretty bad machine. Another thing that varies as the plane ages is the amount of power each engine provides, meaning that you can get a plane that pulls slightly to one side/the weaker side, which needs to be manually counteracted with the rudder trim and by setting each power lever differently so as to provide the same amount of torque.
 
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:05 am

Max Q wrote:
First time I’ve heard anyone criticize the handling of the 727


Probably a matter of perception. I went from the Falcon to the 727 and was less than impressed. Probably didn't help either that ours were clapped out pax birds, who've been ridden hard and left outside in the wet, before being converted to more noble freight carrying steeds. They were underpowered (hence the 'dog' reference), particularly as we operated them in a hot and sandy place. On days of 'bad' inversions, we'd take-off and seemingly hang around forever at 2000ft before gaining enough airspeed to dare a climb. They weren't particularly well maintained either, just enough to keep the oily bits wet and the not so oily bets a tad less wet.

The change from 727 to 757 was profound, and I loved flying those things. You're right about them being a tad 'dead' in pitch, but to be honest it's something I'd forgotten all about until you brought it up. Been 8 years since I last flew one, still miss it albeit I don't miss the life of flying boxes around for a living. Wasn't my choice to hang up the hat, though, diabetes did that for me.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:37 pm

rjsampson wrote:
I've brought this up before: So many YouTube videos from the cockpit during takeoff show the PF using 2 hands on the Yoke during rotation. I've never understood this. Makes me wonder if certain aircraft are indeed "heavier" on the controls. Or maybe (as a previous instructor once told me), they just have weak arms. He had a much more colorful phrase for that, which cannot be posted :)

?


You have to put your hand somewhere after letting go of the thrust levers at V1. The yoke seems like a logical place. On an Airbus, there's no particular guidance but it normally ends up in your lap.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
timh4000
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:26 am

Interesting that the 757-200 doesn't handle turbulence well.My worst experience with it was landing in PIT in one. This was back before youtube and all of that. It was expected, everything was stowed early and the FA's were told to take their seats. So we all just quietly rode it out. Fortunately it smoothed out below the cloud deck so the landing itself wasn't so horrible. Just coming down through it. Now with youtube there are likely a bunch of drama queens make it stop, I don;t want to die..... it was nasty no doubt about that. a couple of uhhh murmurs when you get the zero g floaty feeling in your seat. Had this been unexpected mid flight there miight have been some injuries to FAs or anyone not in their seat. I don't think anything was getting through that landing easy.
 
LH707330
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:25 pm

timh4000 wrote:
Interesting that the 757-200 doesn't handle turbulence well.My worst experience with it was landing in PIT in one. This was back before youtube and all of that. It was expected, everything was stowed early and the FA's were told to take their seats. So we all just quietly rode it out. Fortunately it smoothed out below the cloud deck so the landing itself wasn't so horrible. Just coming down through it. Now with youtube there are likely a bunch of drama queens make it stop, I don;t want to die..... it was nasty no doubt about that. a couple of uhhh murmurs when you get the zero g floaty feeling in your seat. Had this been unexpected mid flight there miight have been some injuries to FAs or anyone not in their seat. I don't think anything was getting through that landing easy.

Low wing loading and a pretty stiff wing will do that....
 
timh4000
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:55 pm

Not doubting it. But That kinda stuff no plane is getting through without a lot of pax not feeling too well. Fortunately I have no issues with motion. Sickness, but I'm not a particular fan of that kind of turbulence. Heck, pilots might be more used to it and are trained to operate through it. I doubt they like it anymore than most of us. Except of course for my then 7 y/o son. We were returning from a Disney package deal, hotel, 3 days in the parks, 3 days on the boat. It was like one last ride for him. Lol. And my younger son who was 2 and had major insomnia issues, up most of the night, never napped. Hes out cold. Lol.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:51 am

timh4000 wrote:
Interesting that the 757-200 doesn't handle turbulence well.My worst experience with it was landing in PIT in one. This was back before youtube and all of that. It was expected, everything was stowed early and the FA's were told to take their seats. So we all just quietly rode it out. Fortunately it smoothed out below the cloud deck so the landing itself wasn't so horrible. Just coming down through it. Now with youtube there are likely a bunch of drama queens make it stop, I don;t want to die..... it was nasty no doubt about that. a couple of uhhh murmurs when you get the zero g floaty feeling in your seat. Had this been unexpected mid flight there miight have been some injuries to FAs or anyone not in their seat. I don't think anything was getting through that landing easy.


This kind of thing is not really unique to the 757. Clouds close to the ground tend to be turbulent and in many cases you just have to punch through.
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WPvsMW
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:58 pm

IMO, turbulence in a light GA a/c is the scariest. Nothing I've felt in an airliner comes close.
 
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:04 am

WPvsMW wrote:
IMO, turbulence in a light GA a/c is the scariest. Nothing I've felt in an airliner comes close.


Word...
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ilovelamp
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Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:51 pm

rjsampson wrote:
I've brought this up before: So many YouTube videos from the cockpit during takeoff show the PF using 2 hands on the Yoke during rotation. I've never understood this. Makes me wonder if certain aircraft are indeed "heavier" on the controls. Or maybe (as a previous instructor once told me), they just have weak arms. He had a much more colorful phrase for that, which cannot be posted :)

?


In the airline world, the hand on the thrust levers is the Captain’s. So the FO has no reason not to use the left hand when it’s his/her takeoff. However, some jets require precise rotation techniques and two hands provide more stability and accuracy. Add in turbulent wind conditions and maybe you can understand that two hands are more beneficial than you thought.

Also, on some aircraft, the more the engines are derated for takeoff, the more back pressure is required during rotation. I’m not exactly weak in the arms department and I find a fully derated 737 requiring a decent amount of strength to rotate at times. But, again, the two hand technique just makes things smoother.
 
747Whale
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:23 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
Also, on some aircraft, the more the engines are derated for takeoff, the more back pressure is required during rotation. I’m not exactly weak in the arms department and I find a fully derated 737 requiring a decent amount of strength to rotate at times. But, again, the two hand technique just makes things smoother.


This should not be the case if takeoff pitch trim is correctly set.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:49 pm

747Whale wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
Also, on some aircraft, the more the engines are derated for takeoff, the more back pressure is required during rotation. I’m not exactly weak in the arms department and I find a fully derated 737 requiring a decent amount of strength to rotate at times. But, again, the two hand technique just makes things smoother.


This should not be the case if takeoff pitch trim is correctly set.


Then perhaps you’ve never flown the 737. It’s in our manuals explained like I’ve described. And, yes, the trim is always set correctly.
 
LH707330
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:57 am

WPvsMW wrote:
IMO, turbulence in a light GA a/c is the scariest. Nothing I've felt in an airliner comes close.

Amen! During my instrument rating we got knocked so hard on an approach that we both smacked the ceiling and had flying paper. Even my CFII was cussing...
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:19 am

Over Vero Beach, FL. FSI had a film crew in a twin. I looked around during turbulence and the $$$$ camera was floating mid-air and the cameraman had a very terrified look on his face as he reached for it. Immediately prior, the camera had been on his lap and shortly thereafter was back on his lap.
 
747Whale
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:32 am

ilovelamp wrote:
747Whale wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:


This should not be the case if takeoff pitch trim is correctly set.


Then perhaps you’ve never flown the 737. It’s in our manuals explained like I’ve described. And, yes, the trim is always set correctly.


You understand that during rotation as the nose rises and the empennage descends, the horizontal stab enters ground effect, right?
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:03 pm

Apparent condescension aside, yes, I am completely aware of that. However, this is about thrust, or more specifically, the lack of it. The 737’s wing-mounted engines creates increases in pitch as thrust increases. As a result, lower thrust settings even with properly set pitch trim creates the need for more back pressure during some rotations.

I’m not a new kid on the block when it comes to flying transport category aircraft so you can drop the condescension.
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:37 pm

747Whale wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
747Whale wrote:

This should not be the case if takeoff pitch trim is correctly set.


Then perhaps you’ve never flown the 737. It’s in our manuals explained like I’ve described. And, yes, the trim is always set correctly.


You understand that during rotation as the nose rises and the empennage descends, the horizontal stab enters ground effect, right?


The 737 is quite special in that as every thrust setting needs it's own stabilizer trim setting, of cause depending on weight, CG and flap setting.
For some operators that's too much data and they only publish simplified stab trim setting information/calculations. Thanks to the Boeing philosophy with the green band trim setting that's no problem at all.
But it might be the reason why some pilots experience higher forces on the yoke than necessary.
Happy Landings
 
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tb727
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:39 pm

B777LRF wrote:
The 727 was a bit of a hog, heavy and not overtly responsive

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Are you sure the middle number between the 7's is correct? :lol:
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Max Q
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:46 pm

tb727 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
The 727 was a bit of a hog, heavy and not overtly responsive

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Are you sure the middle number between the 7's is correct? :lol:




Good question TB !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
stratclub
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:56 am

Maybe he got all the numbers wrong and meant this.

Image
 
Max Q
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:17 am

stratclub wrote:
Maybe he got all the numbers wrong and meant this.

Image



What a great picture SC


Even with that frisbee on the top the 707
still looks great and it was truly a great, revolutionary aircraft, like the Comet it totally changed and improved air travel.


Technologically it was a step ahead of the
Comet though


I never flew it but I did have a couple of sessions in a 707 simulator, it was heavy on the controls and not that responsive


And engine out work was not easy, very high rudder pedal forces, especially with an outboard failure



As most of the flight controls were unpowered, like the DC8 that’s not surprising


It seems like Boeing wanted to make up for
any handling issues on their next aircraft and they certainly did with the 727


I think the ‘72 still sets the bar in that respect, it was just a delight to fly, stable
yet responsive


It was like it laid a set of railroad tracks in the sky ahead of it !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:14 am

If anything, this proves perceptions can be wildly different. As mentioned earlier, the 727s I flew were old, tired and not that well maintained. Coming from a Falcon, I was left feeling severely unimpressed. Stable? Yes. Responsive, no - that wasn't the feeling I got. Again, coming from a Falcon might have ruined me forever. That 'ours' were also very underpowered in the environment we worked didn't exactly help. I understand the ones 'we' flew in Europe were a whole different kettle of fish, but I never got to try them, going instead for the 757.
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VSMUT
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:59 am

ilovelamp wrote:
In the airline world, the hand on the thrust levers is the Captain’s. So the FO has no reason not to use the left hand when it’s his/her takeoff.


That is entirely dependent on aircraft and company procedures. It is not a universal truth that the captain handles the power levers.
 
Max Q
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:15 pm

VSMUT wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
In the airline world, the hand on the thrust levers is the Captain’s. So the FO has no reason not to use the left hand when it’s his/her takeoff.


That is entirely dependent on aircraft and company procedures. It is not a universal truth that the captain handles the power levers.




The reason for the Captain controlling the throttles during take off is that it’s his decision to continue or reject in the event of a problem. If he does call for a reject he will bring the throttles to idle, making sure the AT’s are disconnected, at that point RTO braking should start, simultaneously he will
select maximum reverse which automatically deploys the speed brakes, if
these actions dont take place he will accomplish them manually, this is for 757/ 767


That is normal airline practice, Captain guards the throttles during take off
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:10 pm

Boeing SOP calls for manaul deployment of the speedbrakes in the event of an RTO, followed up by reverse thrust. It's that way for a lot of years now.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:22 pm

Max Q wrote:
The reason for the Captain controlling the throttles during take off is that it’s his decision to continue or reject in the event of a problem. If he does call for a reject he will bring the throttles to idle, making sure the AT’s are disconnected, at that point RTO braking should start, simultaneously he will
select maximum reverse which automatically deploys the speed brakes, if
these actions dont take place he will accomplish them manually, this is for 757/ 767


That is normal airline practice, Captain guards the throttles during take off


There is no reason why the CM2 can't handle the power levers during takeoff. Reaching up to pull the levers back takes a fraction of a second. CM2s are already expected to be ready for this.

It's a 2-pilot crew. If any pilot realises that the aircraft is unflyable, they will abort. It isn't a captains unilateral decision. That is normal airline practice - or at least it is at any competent airline. It is basic knowledge these days that everybody makes mistakes, captains included.
 
747Whale
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:12 pm

It really depends on the operator. My last two large operators, it was only the captain's decision to reject. In fact, the F/O portion of the briefing, when the F/O was the pilot flying, was "in the event of a malfunction, it's your decision to reject, I will back you up on the speed brakes and notify the tower." At that point, the captain could enter with his reject criteria.

It's a bit presumptuous to say "any competent airline," given that procedures and practices vary considerably.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:18 pm

Antoher varition on the RTO is the use of the word "STOP" as apposed to reject. Either pilot can call it, but only the PIC can actually do it. STOP in lieu of Reject is used with multi-national crews where languages may differ. The word abort is not a Boeing term for training purposes.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:54 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Antoher varition on the RTO is the use of the word "STOP" as apposed to reject. Either pilot can call it, but only the PIC can actually do it. STOP in lieu of Reject is used with multi-national crews where languages may differ. The word abort is not a Boeing term for training purposes.


Indeed. The English word "abort" comes from the Latin word "abortus" meaning "fetus" (and let's not touch that subject with a 10 foot pole), so it stands to reason that in other languages derived from Latin, this is not a good word. STOP, on the other hand, makes sense across all languages.
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
747Whale
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:17 pm

No, that makes no sense at all.

There is no cockpit crew, upon hearing the "abort" during a rejected takeoff, immediately assumes that a fetus is being removed from a womb. That's beyond idiotic, and so far off base as to completely derail the conversation.

The standard word to reject a takeoff in Boeingspeak is "reject.

One aborts an engine start. One rejects a takeoff.

This does not carry into other operators, as only Boeing insists that a rejected takeoff is just that; a rejected takeoff and not an aborted one.

Various operators, on the other hand, have their own calls, and what is given at one operator cannot be assumed at another.
 
stratclub
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:34 pm

Makes perfect sense. When Boeing writes technical data of lately such as maintenance data that includes maintenance manuals etc, the trend has been to use something called universal English. What that mean is that the English used takes into account people that use English as a second language.

The reason Americans are so hated on a world level is that Americans tend to ridicule other cultures differences instead of trying to understand other cultures differences. On a take off roll if the word stop means RTO time and the crew understands this and agrees to the meaning of stop, why is that a ridiculous thing?

The reason I really hate traveling with most Americans is that when Americans encounter other cultures, they tend to make fun of cultural differences they don't understand instead of trying to understanding those differences. As an example, did you know that showing the palms of your hands is considered a vulgar gesture to the Vietnamese?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:56 pm

In the USAF, AMC world, we used “GO” at V1 which makes sense, I wish we were just as smart and say, “STOP”. Two very sensible words.

GF
 
BravoOne
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:28 pm

Stratclub what a pompous post and certainly not in the seasonal goodwill to all spirit, if you get my drift.
 
747Whale
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Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:53 pm

stratclub wrote:
anti-"american" bullshit


Thanks. Noted.

Go fly something else.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Manual flight handling characteristics of airliners

Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:46 am

Don't think stratclub is a pilot based on his posts.

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