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rfresh737
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:30 am

Memphis ILS 27 Question

Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:54 am

I have a question about the KMEM (Memphis) ILS 27 approach.

It has to do with IPEPE way point. I was recently flying this approach as an SIC on a Citation II. We were flying a LOC approach to runway 27 with circle to land to 18R. When the runway came into view, I called the tower and we were cleared to circle right and do a visual landing on runway 18R. We had not yet reached IPEPE but had passed the FAF.

We have a Garmin GTN 750 and had loaded IPEPE into the GPS for reference. I also had my VOR set to the Memphis VOR with 052 set on my course to ID IPEPE.

My question is:

1. Without actually reaching IPEPE on the LOC approach, this means we could only descend to 980 feet on the circle to land minimums?

2. IF we were flying the ILS to runway 27, can IPEPE be identified if we are on the GS passing through 980 feet?

My questions has to do with how many ways can I identify IPEPE?

Thanks...

http://www.glassftd.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/KMEM_ILS_27.pdf
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1514
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:16 am

After CLBRN, you can descend to 980’ which is the minimum for circling. There are two ways to identify IPEPE, radar or dual VOR, one continuously tuned to the LOC, one to the MEM VOR. GPS cannot be a substitute for fixes on LOC approaches. IPEPE can never be identified by altitude following the GS. See advisory circular on this subject, linked here

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/90-108.pdf
 
SoCalPilot
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:37 am

Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:38 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
GPS cannot be a substitute for fixes on LOC approaches.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/90-108.pdf

I believe this is incorrect. The AC you linked to seems to contradict that statement also:

a. Usage of Suitable RNAV Systems. Subject to the operating requirements in this AC,
operators may use a suitable RNAV system in the following ways.
(1) Determine aircraft position relative to or distance from a VOR (see first note in
subparagraph 7b), TACAN, NDB, compass locator (see second note in subparagraph 7b), DME
fix; or a named fix defined by a VOR radial, TACAN course, NDB bearing, or compass locator
bearing intersecting a VOR or Localizer (LOC) course.


The AIM has this same guidance. I've always used GPS to ID fixes on an approach and had the VOR or whatever NAVAID frequency/radial tuned in as a backup to "verify".

Think about it: when it says "ADF Required" on an approach, do you have to tune to the NDB? No, you can use GPS to ID the fix.
 
N353SK
Posts: 997
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Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:38 pm

1. Yes.

2. IPEPE is not a part of the ILS approach. On the profile view the asterisk next to IPEPE at 980 sends you to a note that says "LOC ONLY."

Lastly, your verbiage of "When the runway came into view, I called the tower and we were cleared to circle right and do a visual landing on runway 18R" throws a wrench into things. If you were in legal VMC conditions (1000/3 or better) when you called airport in sight the tower may have cleared you for the visual approach to 18R, negating any sort of circling minima.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:18 pm

Gotcha SoCal, I stand corrected. I saw the part about lateral navigation on a LOC using GPS was prohibiting but that must mean replacing the LOC with GPS course guidance.

GF
 
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rfresh737
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Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:38 pm

N353SK wrote:
1. Yes.

2. IPEPE is not a part of the ILS approach. On the profile view the asterisk next to IPEPE at 980 sends you to a note that says "LOC ONLY."

Lastly, your verbiage of "When the runway came into view, I called the tower and we were cleared to circle right and do a visual landing on runway 18R" throws a wrench into things. If you were in legal VMC conditions (1000/3 or better) when you called airport in sight the tower may have cleared you for the visual approach to 18R, negating any sort of circling minima.


The tower cleared us to circle to land runway 18R. A circle to land is always a visual approach...meaning I have to always maintain VMC while circling AND keep 18R in sight at all times...else go miss.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 1514
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Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:15 am

A circling approach is different from a “visual” approach. A visual requires considerably better weather than a circling approach and does not require an Standard IAP (SIAP) to be flown, in fact, it replaces a SIAP. See AIM 5-4-23 on the visual. Yes, a circle to land out of an SIAP is done visually.

GF
 
N766UA
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Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:17 pm

I mean, 1 is a “yes” because that’s what the chart says. 2 is a “no” because that altitude isn’t applicable to an ILS, and even if it was you can’t identify fixes based on altitudes...

Also, it sounds like you flew a LOC approach using your GPS and used the Nav radio to monitor the crossing radial off MEM? Is the aircraft dual VOR?
 
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rfresh737
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Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:03 pm

The PIC was flying an ILS.

We were flying a biz jet so yes, we had dual VORs.
 
N353SK
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Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:36 pm

rfresh737 wrote:
N353SK wrote:
1. Yes.

2. IPEPE is not a part of the ILS approach. On the profile view the asterisk next to IPEPE at 980 sends you to a note that says "LOC ONLY."

Lastly, your verbiage of "When the runway came into view, I called the tower and we were cleared to circle right and do a visual landing on runway 18R" throws a wrench into things. If you were in legal VMC conditions (1000/3 or better) when you called airport in sight the tower may have cleared you for the visual approach to 18R, negating any sort of circling minima.


The tower cleared us to circle to land runway 18R. A circle to land is always a visual approach...meaning I have to always maintain VMC while circling AND keep 18R in sight at all times...else go miss.


A circle-to-land is a visual maneuver. A visual approach is separate and spelled out in AIM 5-5-11.


If the weather is better than 1000/3 and you can maintain clear of clouds a tower controller at a larger facility usually has the capability to clear aircraft for a visual approach.

If you were “cleared ILS 27 circle 18R” by the approach controller then calling the airport in sight would not have been necessary before starting your circle - the only requirement would be to remain above circling minima and within circling distance for your category of aircraft.
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4008
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:24 pm

N353SK wrote:
A circle-to-land is a visual maneuver. A visual approach is separate and spelled out in AIM 5-5-11.


You nailed it,
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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rfresh737
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Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:28 am

>If you were “cleared ILS 27 circle 18R” by the approach controller then calling the airport in sight would not have been necessary before starting your circle -
>the only requirement would be to remain above circling minima and within circling distance for your category of aircraft.

We were IMC during the ILS 27 approach...when we broke out, we saw and called the runway in sight (27)...the tower then told us we were cleared to circle to the right and visually land on 18R.

So you're saying we could have started our circle to land on our own, upon breaking out of the clouds, with runway 27 in sight and land on 18R?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:47 am

The approach clearance should have been, “Citation xxx, cleared ILS 27, circle to land 18R”. Waiting for the tower to issue the circling instruction maybe not late to start the maneuver. Usually, the tower will ask “report starting the circle”; so he’s aware you have the field as he might to have a visual on you. Another subtlety is once cleared, the tower cannot request you to modify your maneuver as in “extend downwind” as the ATCO can not accurately determine your position within the surveyed circling airspace, thus compromising terrain/obstacle clearance.

GF
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 4008
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: Memphis ILS 27 Question

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:20 pm

This thread is one of the reasons when I was still working IAH Tower/approach we worked with the FTW FPO to eliminate circling approaches at IAH. Far too many things to consider from both ATC and Pilot side of things. Just do straight-in approaches and it is much easier for all and less confusion/questions.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.

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