Max Q
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Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:11 am

Curious how many airlines keep simulators
going after retiring that type


Perhaps to train pilots from other airlines?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:56 am

Max Q wrote:
Curious how many airlines keep simulators
going after retiring that type


Perhaps to train pilots from other airlines?


Very common. For example SK had their 767 for a long time after retirement. As you say they sell sim slots to other airlines.

There are lots of variants.

Some companies don’t even have their own sims. And some companies that are defunct as airlines still run sim centers for years, e.g. SABENA.

For that matter even companies with their own sim centers often buy sim time from others due to capacity issues.

Then you have companies that lease a bay. For example FlightSafety runs a Gulfstream sim in one bay of the CX training centre.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:13 am

Ansett kept operating simulators and training services years after they retired all their types.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:06 am

Max Q wrote:
Curious how many airlines keep simulators
going after retiring that type



If the simulator is of a current aircraft type (or if it's one of a tiny handful of an aging type left) then it can be wise to keep the simulator going and use it as additional income (by training other pilots). Simulators while cheaper than an actual aircraft are still rather pricey items.
 
Max Q
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:35 am

It’s interesting, some airlines have kept sims going years and years after that type have left their fleet


AA kept a B707 sim for a long time after retiring that type


I think it was used for pilot hiring
assessment, Delta kept their L1011
sim going for some time after all their Tristars headed west I believe


I’m sure there’s plenty of other examples


I wonder if United and Delta are still
operating their 744 simulators ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:57 am

As mentioned, DL kept the L1011 and MD11 going for awhile after the aircraft was no longer in their fleet. I believe UAL kept a 747-200 around as well. If you have the space and the sim is already in place you might as well generate some income until h=that sim bay is required for something newer. It helps if you also have a Part 142 certificate that allows you to instruct on that particular model. I would think that UAL probably still has 744 sim time available. Pan Am Academy down in MIA has a large collection of older model sims available. They might even have a 707:)
 
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747classic
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:19 am

A 747-200 FFS is still active with Kalitta after the retirement of their last 747-200F.
This particular simulator has been built by CAE for KLM in 1980 and is one of the few 747 classic simulators remaining.

See : http://www.kalittaair.com/flight-training-devices/
Detailed info : https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... -12-13.pdf
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Acey559
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:08 pm

ABX Air still has a DC-9 and an ancient DC-8 sim in addition to the 767 sim which of course still gets lots of use.
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TheSonntag
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:26 pm

Not trying to highjack the Thread but how are the graphics in an 1980 742 sim? I would believe its much worse than in a modern sim?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:53 pm

The visuals usually get updated so as to keep up with the FAA certs. I'm sure there are no 1980 visual systems around these days. Just to any changes.
 
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tb727
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:16 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Not trying to highjack the Thread but how are the graphics in an 1980 742 sim? I would believe its much worse than in a modern sim?


They are very good actually. I have some time in that sim and it flew nice and was updated.

I got typed in a 727 sim built by the Singer Corp(sewing machine company) for Eastern 40 years prior. It was nice and Astar had it updated with their Universal “FMS” and decent graphics.
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jchaase
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:56 pm

DL has a 737-200 full motion sim at their museum in Atlanta. $400 or so for a 1-hour ride. Highly recommend it.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:13 am

TheSonntag wrote:
Not trying to highjack the Thread but how are the graphics in an 1980 742 sim? I would believe its much worse than in a modern sim?


Getting in the A350 sim after the A330 is quite an eye-opener (heh...), but the graphics in our oldest A330 sim are fine. You don't get neat touches like moving traffic on roads and such though. :D

On a related note, I had the chance to "fly" a A310 sim at a simulator museum in the Netherlands. Since there was no concern with certification, the owners had simply yanked out the stock graphics and replaced them with MS Flight Sim. Flatscreens were mounted above the cockpit and mirrors were used to bounce the visuals through the windows. Very nice.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:50 am

I know that KLM still has a Fokker 100 (or maybe 70) sim. They use it for grading purposes for recruitment.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:26 am

jchaase wrote:
DL has a 737-200 full motion sim at their museum in Atlanta. $400 or so for a 1-hour ride. Highly recommend it.


That sim was delivered new to DL around 1990, so it's not really that old. Probably one of the few Level D 737-200 sims ever built, if not the only one.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:30 am

TOGA10 wrote:
I know that KLM still has a Fokker 100 (or maybe 70) sim. They use it for grading purposes for recruitment.


Those poor candidates... :D
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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ish2dachoppa
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:49 am

When I was living in the DFW area in the late 90s, and taking some aviation courses at a local college, one of the instructors was a captain with American Eagle, and gave us a tour of the AA Flight Academy. At that time, the Air Force had a contract with AA for training their KC-135 crews there, and a lot of the training equipment was modified or repurposed from Americans 707 days.
 
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747classic
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:24 pm

TheSonntag wrote:
Not trying to highjack the Thread but how are the graphics in an 1980 742 sim? I would believe its much worse than in a modern sim?


Most simulators are updated at regular times.
The Kalitta 747-200 simulator Visual System has been upgraded with a state of the art RSI Raster XT Image Generator and LED DLP projector technology. The Image Generator uses World-Wide Geo-Specific Terrain and Imagery, special weather and lighting effects, and winter scenes to create a highly realistic environment in Dusk, Day, or Night. Available Class I Airports are KJFK, KLAX, KSFO, EHAM, EDYY, and VHHH. Unlimited generic airports are also available.

Also the flightdeck lay-out has been upgraded at regular times : Avionics upgrades include CMC FMS, Astronautics EFIS, GPS, TAWS/EGPWS, Auto-land/Rollout Guidance, IS&S Engine Instrument Display Systems, and iPad based Class 2 EFB.

For pictures of transport from KLM to Kalitta (2005) and built up, see : http://jpasims.appspot.com/kalitta-move
For pictures of flightdeck lay-out, see : http://jpasims.appspot.com/kalitta-update
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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747classic
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:24 pm

Double posting due extreme slow reaction time of website, pls delete !
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:22 pm

Thank you for the replies. Interesting to know. So basically a 1980 built Simulator might still use the 1980 gauges but no longer 1980 computers... so its an evolving system. Quite typical for the IT branch.
 
Flighty
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:06 pm

The original big jet simulators ran using banks of computers that cost millllllllions and millions of dollars. Even to run, cool, and maintain these old computers would have cost a fortune. It was cheaper than running a quad jet, but probably not by all that much.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:51 pm

Flighty wrote:
The original big jet simulators ran using banks of computers that cost millllllllions and millions of dollars. Even to run, cool, and maintain these old computers would have cost a fortune. It was cheaper than running a quad jet, but probably not by all that much.


Once I got to millions and millions, I totally read the rest in a Carl Sagan voice. :D
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
airbuster
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:11 am

TOGA10 wrote:
I know that KLM still has a Fokker 100 (or maybe 70) sim. They use it for grading purposes for recruitment.


I know that KLM doesn’t have a F100 sim. And they don’t use it for grading. Grading is mostly on the 747 sim. I did my KLM grading on the 767 and when I flew the F100 the 3 sims we used were at CAE. One of them used to be the old KLM F100 sim. Here’s a link:

https://www.klmflightcrewtraining.com/simulators.php

Airbuster
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BravoOne
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:12 pm

I use to do Twin Otter recurrence at FSI, Toronto. The sim had a visual and loaded with some the most obscure airports in the world. Mostly in places like Tibet, Mongolia and China. Lots of fun as long as you didn't have to worry about killing yourself. The Otter I flew was on floats so that FSI sim was the total extent of my wheel time in the aircraft.
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:02 am

airbuster wrote:
TOGA10 wrote:
I know that KLM still has a Fokker 100 (or maybe 70) sim. They use it for grading purposes for recruitment.


I know that KLM doesn’t have a F100 sim. And they don’t use it for grading. Grading is mostly on the 747 sim. I did my KLM grading on the 767 and when I flew the F100 the 3 sims we used were at CAE. One of them used to be the old KLM F100 sim. Here’s a link:

https://www.klmflightcrewtraining.com/simulators.php

Airbuster

Sorry, I've been misinformed on the matter than. My apologies. I know that the 747 is used as well, but some former colleagues told me about the Fokker sim. Must've been at CAE.
Love flying, hate the alarm at 3 in the morning, love watching the sun rise at 5:30. It's all about compromises.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:15 pm

Actually at the American Airline Flight Academy, mounted on the wall is a model of terrain, a city, and airport runways. When you flew the simulator, you were actually controlling the camera which moved/"flew" across the model terrain. So the camera video was piped onto the screens of the simulator for the outside visuals of the ground. I guess back then model makers had to make the visuals for the flight simulator.

The 707 simulator at AA was placarded KC-135 outside on the door.
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Flighty
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:58 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Flighty wrote:
The original big jet simulators ran using banks of computers that cost millllllllions and millions of dollars. Even to run, cool, and maintain these old computers would have cost a fortune. It was cheaper than running a quad jet, but probably not by all that much.


Once I got to millions and millions, I totally read the rest in a Carl Sagan voice. :D


I got to visit the old Northwest Airlines sim building. It was built around the computers by Sperry-Rand, Burroughs, Ladd(?). It seemed roughly equivalent to the space program in there. How do you even fix these old computers? They had a staffed parts department just for the sims. One of the most impressive facilities that I ever saw.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Airlines that continue operating simulators after retiring that type

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:07 pm

Woodreau wrote:
Actually at the American Airline Flight Academy, mounted on the wall is a model of terrain, a city, and airport runways. When you flew the simulator, you were actually controlling the camera which moved/"flew" across the model terrain. So the camera video was piped onto the screens of the simulator for the outside visuals of the ground. I guess back then model makers had to make the visuals for the flight simulator.

The 707 simulator at AA was placarded KC-135 outside on the door.


Since the 707 and KC135 have very little in common one has to wonder what the big picture looked like? Maybe a 135 sim sitting on the old 707 platform?

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