N415XJ
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Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:10 am

A few years ago, I was on an EK flight from DXB-BEY in business class. Besides us the only other people in the cabin were some young guys who were acting goofy and belligerent during the flight. At one point, one of them whips out a cigar and (jokingly, it seemed) tells the FA that he's going to light it, and the FA spent about 25 minutes getting him to put it away. I remembered this and got to thinking- to all the FAs and Pilots here, have you ever had a passenger try to smoke on one of your flights? If so, how often does this happen? If they actually start smoking does the aircraft need to be cleaned in any special way before the next flight?

Would be interesting to hear all your stories. I'd imagine most passengers who do this are either 'troublemakers', or those who are legitimately surprised that what they're doing is absolutely forbidden.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:16 am

Had it happen once. Smell of smoke in the lav. I think they keep pushing the flush button to try to ventilate, but this doesn't completely eliminate the smell. If memory serves the cabin crew were pretty sure who it was but didn't manage to catch him in the act.

AFAIK, there's no need to clean the plane. I don't think one person smoking will affect the ventilation system and one cigarette shouldn't leave any lingering smell.

I don't know if you'd call these people troublemakers. They know it is forbidden. They're simply busting for a smoke and they think they can get away with it. The incident you describe sounds more like one of those people who likes to argue with authority in order to look cool in front of his friends.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SimProgrammer
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:57 am

To SSH a pax lit up in the lav but wasn't caught. A cabin announcement asking the pax to come forward so they can locate the cigarette butt, to no avail.

To LPA a pax lit up in the lav setting off the alarm while still at the gate, but nobody caught, and PIC threatened to divert if anyone else lit up.

To LHR a pax brazenly lit up in his seat in Y, took a few deep puffs before putting out the cigarette, but went unnoticed by the cabin until another pax approached and snatched the extinguished butt from the pax's hand and took it to the galley. The pax was arrested at the gate in the presence of an embassy official from his home country.
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Georgetown
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:11 am

SimProgrammer wrote:

To LHR a pax brazenly lit up in his seat in Y, took a few deep puffs before putting out the cigarette, but went unnoticed by the cabin until another pax approached and snatched the extinguished butt from the pax's hand and took it to the galley. The pax was arrested at the gate in the presence of an embassy official from his home country.


This blows my mind a little bit. Doesn’t seem remotely reasonable.
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barney captain
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:48 am

More times than I can remember.

Standard procedure is to pour a pot of water in the trash incase they threw their cigarette in there.
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VSMUT
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:11 am

I've had cabin crew and pilots light up without permission, but never any passengers. Stinks the entire aircraft up, nasty.

barney captain wrote:
More times than I can remember.

Standard procedure is to pour a pot of water in the trash incase they threw their cigarette in there.


Don't all trash compartments come with an automatic fire extinguisher?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:57 am

On a related note, I've had the Master Warning go off for "Lavatory Smoke" when someone used a body spray in the lav, but not for a cigarette.

Public Service Announcement: Be careful with your spray-on deodorants in aircraft lavatories. The Master Warning will give the pilots a large and unnecessary dose of adrenaline. :D
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
barney captain
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:02 am

VSMUT wrote:
I've had cabin crew and pilots light up without permission, but never any passengers. Stinks the entire aircraft up, nasty.

barney captain wrote:
More times than I can remember.

Standard procedure is to pour a pot of water in the trash incase they threw their cigarette in there.


Don't all trash compartments come with an automatic fire extinguisher?


Yes they do - but it makes much more sense to prevent a fire than extinguish one.
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ChrisKen
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:22 am

Georgetown wrote:
This blows my mind a little bit. Doesn’t seem remotely reasonable.

By lighting up, the passenger had committed several several offences under UK law. More so if the aircraft was G registered.
Endangering an aircraft sits at the top of that list.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:49 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Georgetown wrote:
This blows my mind a little bit. Doesn’t seem remotely reasonable.

By lighting up, the passenger had committed several several offences under UK law. More so if the aircraft was G registered.
Endangering an aircraft sits at the top of that list.


Not that I'm condoning the behaviour, but IMHO he's not really endangering the aircraft. The aircraft can handle smoking just fine if lit materials are properly disposed of, e.g. not thrown into a lav garbage container full of paper.

Smoking was allowed on most airlines until a couple of decades ago (it is still allowed by many private jet operators) and it wasn't taking down airliners on a regular basis. Pretty much all the furnishings are flame-proof or flame-retardant.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Max Q
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:59 am

Happened a few times over the years

And several pilots continued smoking in the cockpit long
after it was banned
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Starlionblue
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:02 am

Max Q wrote:
Happened a few times over the years

And several pilots continued smoking in the cockpit long
after it was banned


Learned something new today. Pilots in the US were allowed to continue smoking after the ban because of health concerns over nicotine withdrawal symptoms.

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/10/us/b ... ckpit.html
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:17 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Not that I'm condoning the behaviour, but IMHO he's not really endangering the aircraft. The aircraft can handle smoking just fine if lit materials are properly disposed of, e.g. not thrown into a lav garbage container full of paper.

If the pax can't be trusted to abide by the rules regarding lighting up, can you trust them to dispose of their material properly? I'd suggest intentionally lighting a small fire is endangering the aircraft.
Bear in mind the example given above, the pax was in their seat. Where were they going to dispose of the material, more importantly, what did they stub it out on? Unless the seats were very old indeed, there was no 'proper' place in their vicinity.

As said, 'endangering an aircraft was one of list. Regardless of yours or my opinions, smoking on board a G registered airliner is a criminal offence in itself, you will be arrested on arrival (or on your return to the UK) if caught. Penalties range from a large fine to many years in prison (I've seen 9+ years handed down), plus varying degrees of ban from the airline in question, usually lifetime.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:41 am

Certainly smoking is an offence, and I'm all for prosecuting the offenders. And no, I wouldn't trust them to dispose of materials properly, but even if they stubbed out their cigarette on the seat cushion nothing would happen beyond a scorch mark. The furnishings are flame retardant or flame resistant.

Legally, I would say there's a distinction between "smoking on board" and "endangering the aircraft". The distinction hinges on it being a purposeful or negligent act. If the smoker took reasonable precautions to ensure there was no fire hazard, the person could be certainly prosecuted for smoking on board, but it would be hard to pin "endangering the aircraft" on him.

In other words, while smoking is not endangering the aircraft by itself, unsafely disposing of lit materials can endanger the aircraft. If a person smoked in the toilet and disposed of the cigarette in the ashtray after holding it under the running faucet, that would be one thing. If he threw a lit match into the garbage, that would be another.

For reference.
US Law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/32
UK Law: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/t ... t-offences
Australian Law: https://www.armstronglegal.com.au/crimi ... f-aircraft

Again, not suggesting smoking on the aircraft is a trivial thing, but on the hazard scale, it doesn't keep me up at night. When I grew up, smoking on the aircraft was commonplace. Despite this, fires in the cabin were quite rare. Off hand, I can only think of one fatal accident in the jet age which may have been caused by a cigarette thrown in the garbage, VARIG 820. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varig_Flight_820
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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longhauler
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:33 pm

It is a shame there are not sprinklers in the lavs. Maybe even with purple dyed agent. Imagine being enclosed in a lav with your necessary cigarette butt clutched in your nicotine stained claw covered in purple dye. Show that on facebook a couple times .... problem solved!

barney captain wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Don't all trash compartments come with an automatic fire extinguisher?


Yes they do - but it makes much more sense to prevent a fire than extinguish one.

And, the trash bin extinguishers are heat activated, not smoke activated, so there has to be an actual fire first!

As Barney Captain suggests, why let it get to that extent? It is policy where I fly as well even if the cigarette butt is found.

As I have mentioned on a few threads here, our last passenger fatality was the result of a cabin fire. (Although not cigarette related). Our cabin fire training excercises in the cabin simulator and galley fire simulator far exceeds Transport Canada requirements as it sticks in our minds.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:39 pm

longhauler wrote:
It is a shame there are not sprinklers in the lavs. Maybe even with purple dyed agent. Imagine being enclosed in a lav with your necessary cigarette butt clutched in your nicotine stained claw covered in purple dye. Show that on facebook a couple times .... problem solved!


That would be perfect... :D
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Woodreau
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:56 pm

We got a LAV SMOKE master warning with its accompanying piercing aural behind us in the forward lav as we were trying enjoy the sunrise on a redeye flight from the west coast to the east coast (and trying to stay awake) when a passenger decided to vape in the lav. Well we were definitely up now.

Our airline picked up a couple of used 321s from some European airline that still allowed smoking in the cabin, the mechanics said the outflow valves were nasty coated with nicotine tar.
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:13 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
longhauler wrote:
It is a shame there are not sprinklers in the lavs. Maybe even with purple dyed agent. Imagine being enclosed in a lav with your necessary cigarette butt clutched in your nicotine stained claw covered in purple dye. Show that on facebook a couple times .... problem solved!


That would be perfect... :D


Such a request would have to come down from the airlines most likely. Since it's not a regulatory requirement B/E and other interiors/lav/galley manufacturers won't implement it. I definitely like this idea though.

Except it would suck for that person putting aerosol deodorant/hair spray on....
 
mxaxai
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:01 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
Again, not suggesting smoking on the aircraft is a trivial thing, but on the hazard scale, it doesn't keep me up at night. When I grew up, smoking on the aircraft was commonplace. Despite this, fires in the cabin were quite rare. Off hand, I can only think of one fatal accident in the jet age which may have been caused by a cigarette thrown in the garbage, VARIG 820. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varig_Flight_820

There is Air Canada flight 797. The fire wasn't caused by smoking itself but the flight crew considered it a "common" and "harmless" trash bin fire, delayed their descent and only realised the severity of the situation when they lost most of their electrical power. 23 dead of 46 on board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_797
 
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longhauler
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:45 pm

mxaxai wrote:
There is Air Canada flight 797. The fire wasn't caused by smoking itself but the flight crew considered it a "common" and "harmless" trash bin fire, delayed their descent and only realised the severity of the situation when they lost most of their electrical power. 23 dead of 46 on board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_797


Not even close.

I would respectfully suggest that wikipedia is not a good source for information like this. The NTSB is a better source and most reports are in the public domain:

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-fu ... R86-02.pdf

For the record ... the source of the fire was never determined. At no time did the cabin crew ever think it was "common" nor "harmless", in fact they fought the fire three times after reporting it to the Captain and three times they reported back to the Captain that the fire was out. That was the major cause of the delay in diverting. By comparison, today, any smoke or fumes in the cabin is cause for diversion. Period. Even if it is thought the fire is "out".

It wasn't until the First Officer went back to investigate, opened the cockpit door and saw smoke, that the diversion started. It was assumed that because the smoke was gradually building, the cabin crew was not aware of how bad it was becoming.

Also, by comparison, smoke in the lav is no longer assumed to be in the trash bin, as it was in the "smoking days". With AC797, the fire was outside of the lav shell itself. The first indication to the pilots was the three circuit breakers popping as the fire shorted the lav flush pump. Much like Swissair 111 and Valujet 592, cabin fires become very bad very fast.

And ... none of them were caused by smoking ironically enough. In fact, Varig 820 is the only one I can think of where smoking was even considered a possibility, but never confirmed.
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Max Q
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:17 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Happened a few times over the years

And several pilots continued smoking in the cockpit long
after it was banned


Learned something new today. Pilots in the US were allowed to continue smoking after the ban because of health concerns over nicotine withdrawal symptoms.

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/10/us/b ... ckpit.html



Perhaps that was a proposal but I can tell
you it wasn’t allowed at my airline or
any other US carrier I’m aware of


We had a group that continued smoking
in the cockpit despite the ban
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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TOGA10
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:36 pm

Yes. Multiple times actually, last one flying 'near' Syrian airspace towards Turkey, discussing the political situation down below when all of a sudden we had a master warning. Shook us op quite badly. Cabin crew located him/her and he/she denied it, saying he/she was spraying on deodorant (the lav did smell like it apparently) but also a butt was found at the same time. No proof, so no actions against him/her apart from a firm talking to. Cabin crew said even his breath smelled of a cigarette...
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N415XJ
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:48 pm

Thanks everyone for the great replies!

TOGA10 wrote:
Yes. Multiple times actually, last one flying 'near' Syrian airspace towards Turkey, discussing the political situation down below when all of a sudden we had a master warning. Shook us op quite badly. Cabin crew located him/her and he/she denied it, saying he/she was spraying on deodorant (the lav did smell like it apparently) but also a butt was found at the same time. No proof, so no actions against him/her apart from a firm talking to. Cabin crew said even his breath smelled of a cigarette...


Ah, the classic 'high school stoners pulled over by a cop' move. Fill the area with massive amounts whatever smelly spray you have on hand the mask the smell of whatever you were smoking and deny, deny, deny.
 
DDR
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:38 pm

I've had it happen a few times on my flights. It is funny when the person denies they were smoking because you can smell it on them and in the lav. Our captain had a passenger arrested after landing in Buenos Aires because he did it not once, but twice on the flight. Captain said he would have never had the guy arrested if he had refrained after the first time and warning.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:19 pm

N415XJ wrote:
Thanks everyone for the great replies!


Just found this thread - been off line on a nice vacation.

In 2014, got a call from the flight attendants in the aft cabin that they'd smelled smoke in one of the aft lav (739, IIRC) and when they knocked on the lav door, the customer opened the door and a cloud of smoke rolled out. But he didn't have a cigarette in his hands and they then discovered the trash was on fire - he'd thrown the cigarette into the trash.

To make a long story short, he was arrested after landing (removed from the aircraft in handcuffs). I found out some weeks later that he'd only been detained for less that an hour.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
747Whale
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:10 am

Starlionblue wrote:

Learned something new today. Pilots in the US were allowed to continue smoking after the ban because of health concerns over nicotine withdrawal symptoms.

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/10/us/b ... ckpit.html


Still common on a lot of cargo aircraft, crew members who smoke. Typically go aft to "inspect the cargo."

Frankly, I'd much rather have someone smoke than deal with someone who needs that cigarette and hasn't had one for seven hours. It's like flying with an ex-mother-in-law on an off-monday. Sucks.

Smoking was quite common on some longer charter flights; in some cases, passengers chartered the jet so that they could do as they pleased, including smoking.

It's hell on outflow valves and instruments. Really gums them up.
 
StTim
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:01 am

I did hear tales that smoking did help identify rivets that needed attention as there was a brown trail on the skin aft of the offending rivet!

Edit as autocorrect changed rivet to river!
 
747Whale
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:47 pm

A smoking rivet is self-identifying. A smoking rivet is fretting corrosion occurring at the site of the specific rivet, and indicates that the rivet needs to be replaced. It may also indicate other problems; something has caused the rivet to lose it's tightness; it may be material loss due to other forms of corrosion, such as corrosion between overlapping (faying) surfaces in a lap joint, or a damaged or broken structure or layer in the structure. It could be an improperly driven rivet.

A single smoking rivet (which doesn't require smokers on board the aircraft) is typically simply in need of being replaced, with a new rivet driven or pulled in its place, or not infrequently, an oversize rivet reshot in place. A line of smoking rivets is often indicative of other problems, and is cause for closer inspection of the underlying structure.

A smoking rivet gets its name from the streak of black or dark trail aft of the rivet. This is detritus or debris from the rivet and surrounding structure, where it has vibrated and "fretted," which is a form of corrosion. It can be cleaned away and will recur, if the fretting continues. It's the rivet and surrounding metal that's producing this, rather than smokers on board the aircraft.
 
greendot
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:03 am

N415XJ wrote:
A few years ago, I was on an EK flight from DXB-BEY in business class. Besides us the only other people in the cabin were some young guys who were acting goofy and belligerent during the flight. At one point, one of them whips out a cigar and (jokingly, it seemed) tells the FA that he's going to light it, and the FA spent about 25 minutes getting him to put it away. I remembered this and got to thinking- to all the FAs and Pilots here, have you ever had a passenger try to smoke on one of your flights? If so, how often does this happen? If they actually start smoking does the aircraft need to be cleaned in any special way before the next flight?

Would be interesting to hear all your stories. I'd imagine most passengers who do this are either 'troublemakers', or those who are legitimately surprised that what they're doing is absolutely forbidden.


The worst are Vapers. In the arrogance of their chemical addiction, they play dumb acting like they didn't know it was illegal and that they didn't know it was harmful to others. They set off our smoke detectors all the time. What should we do? Assume it was just them vaping and become conditioned to the alarm, risking everyone, or always treat it like a fire?
 
stratclub
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:46 pm

747Whale wrote:
A smoking rivet is self-identifying. A smoking rivet is fretting corrosion occurring at the site of the specific rivet, and indicates that the rivet needs to be replaced. It may also indicate other problems; something has caused the rivet to lose it's tightness; it may be material loss due to other forms of corrosion, such as corrosion between overlapping (faying) surfaces in a lap joint, or a damaged or broken structure or layer in the structure. It could be an improperly driven rivet.

A single smoking rivet (which doesn't require smokers on board the aircraft) is typically simply in need of being replaced, with a new rivet driven or pulled in its place, or not infrequently, an oversize rivet reshot in place. A line of smoking rivets is often indicative of other problems, and is cause for closer inspection of the underlying structure.

A smoking rivet gets its name from the streak of black or dark trail aft of the rivet. This is detritus or debris from the rivet and surrounding structure, where it has vibrated and "fretted," which is a form of corrosion. It can be cleaned away and will recur, if the fretting continues. It's the rivet and surrounding metal that's producing this, rather than smokers on board the aircraft.


Actually, the StTim is correct. Nicotine did leave brown streaks from rivet heads on the outer skin of aircraft. On those aircraft, that same brown was very evident on the internals of outflow vales and insulation blanket surfaces exposed to cabin airflow. A rivet loose enough to cause fretting would leave a black streak from corrosion.
 
stratclub
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:53 pm

greendot wrote:
N415XJ wrote:
A few years ago, I was on an EK flight from DXB-BEY in business class. Besides us the only other people in the cabin were some young guys who were acting goofy and belligerent during the flight. At one point, one of them whips out a cigar and (jokingly, it seemed) tells the FA that he's going to light it, and the FA spent about 25 minutes getting him to put it away. I remembered this and got to thinking- to all the FAs and Pilots here, have you ever had a passenger try to smoke on one of your flights? If so, how often does this happen? If they actually start smoking does the aircraft need to be cleaned in any special way before the next flight?

Would be interesting to hear all your stories. I'd imagine most passengers who do this are either 'troublemakers', or those who are legitimately surprised that what they're doing is absolutely forbidden.


Vaping as a human activity is pretty ridiculous. Those people are inhaling what is essentially food grade anti-freeze which very little is known about how safe it is to inhale. Also, with vaping, the possibility of consuming higher amounts of nicotine then smoking is very real. So much for vaping helping a person kick their nicotine addiction.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:27 am

greendot wrote:
What should we do? Assume it was just them vaping and become conditioned to the alarm, risking everyone, or always treat it like a fire?

Treat it like a full confirmed fire, every single time. Cite the small but intense heat source (fire) & 'smoke' as the reason for discharging the extinguisher into the lav.
 
stratclub
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:59 am

ChrisKen wrote:
greendot wrote:
What should we do? Assume it was just them vaping and become conditioned to the alarm, risking everyone, or always treat it like a fire?

Treat it like a full confirmed fire, every single time. Cite the small but intense heat source (fire) & 'smoke' as the reason for discharging the extinguisher into the lav.

No don't do that. Fire extinguishing agent is some bad stuff and is only meant to be used as a last resort when there actually is a fire. If someone was vaping and set off the alarm, have a F/A monitor the lav for a while to make sure that there actually isn't a fire. About the only thing that might burn in a lav is the trash can which does have it's own fire extinguisher, so if the trash can extinguisher didn't go off and the temp strip didn't indicate high temp, the possibility of an actual fire is remote.

IDK if vaping is allowed during flight, but if it isn't, report the passenger. If the passenger is vaping then they are spewing food grade antifreeze into the cabin which could effect people with respiratory issues.
 
747Whale
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:34 am

Trash receptacle. Wiring, Insulation, etc. Plenty to burn. A fire indication may be a trash receptacle, but may be something else.
 
stratclub
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:03 am

747Whale wrote:
Trash receptacle. Wiring, Insulation, etc. Plenty to burn. A fire indication may be a trash receptacle, but may be something else.

But what is the by far most likely cause of fire in a lav especially if someone is smoking in a lav? That is why you would have someone monitor the lav to make sure the fire is out if there was a fire. If you did have an electrical fire, an extinguisher would not put it out anyway. Why would insulation burn since it is flame retardant and not accessible to people using the lav? Electrical fire maybe? See above.........
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:01 am

stratclub wrote:
No don't do that. Fire extinguishing agent is some bad stuff and is only meant to be used as a last resort when there actually is a fire. If someone was vaping and set off the alarm, have a F/A monitor the lav for a while to make sure that there actually isn't a fire. About the only thing that might burn in a lav is the trash can which does have it's own fire extinguisher, so if the trash can extinguisher didn't go off and the temp strip didn't indicate high temp, the possibility of an actual fire is remote.

.

Whooosh :sarcastic:
 
747Whale
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:28 pm

stratclub wrote:
But what is the by far most likely cause of fire in a lav especially if someone is smoking in a lav? That is why you would have someone monitor the lav to make sure the fire is out if there was a fire. If you did have an electrical fire, an extinguisher would not put it out anyway. Why would insulation burn since it is flame retardant and not accessible to people using the lav? Electrical fire maybe? See above.........


A lot of things burn, including wiring insulation. And yes, insulation will burn. Even nomex, fire resistant clothing will burn (ask me how I know).

There's a reason that we don't reset lav circuit breakers.

Whether it's accessible or not, if there's a fire indication, something needs to be done about it, and given the rate that a fire can spread, I'm not inclined to wait until everyone is happy that there's no fire. The indication is adequate for me. I've had enough of them onboard over the years that my preference is to not guess (fire identified in the lav doesn't mean there isn't one behind a bulkhead or wall), but take action to get the airplane to a landing site ASAP.

I had the very slightest wiff about 20 years ago, so slight that I thought it was my imagination. Less than a minute later, I couldn't see in the cockpit and my eyes and nose and lungs felt as if they were on fire. Things happen quickly. I'm not about to wait for someone else's opinion. If there's a fire indication, it's good enough.

As for discharging halon in an enclosed space, be far more worried about the fire than any combustion byproducts of the halon, which will be gone in moments. Phosgene isn't nearly the threat that the fire is, and the extinguisher isn't going to displace so much oxygen that one can't breathe. the extinguisher won't kill you, but the fire might.
 
stratclub
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:34 pm

Really my point is that of course treat any indication of fire 1000% seriously. But if someone is vaping or smoking in a lav and sets off the smoke detector, don't just automatically discharge a fire extinguisher. If a fire isn't apparent, you can remove the toilet shroud and open the vanity door very easily to look for evidence of fire and/or direct fire extinguishing agent directly at the fire. And yes of course. if a lav circuit breaker has tripped, do not reset it.

An inflight fire is a very terrifying issue that alway should have immediate attention. But the thing is that what you do should involve common sense. Arbitrarily blasting a fire extinguisher into a lav is pretty ridiculous. If you actually did have an electrical fire, it would not put it out and because you took what seemed to be appropriate actions the fire could be still smoldering waiting to ruin your day.
 
747Whale
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:04 pm

I agree; there's no point discharging an extinguisher unless there's evidence of a fire. If nothing else, it wastes an extinguisher that might be needed five minutes from now.

That said, if the source of smoke isn't determined, or in other words if one sees the smoke but can't identify the ignition source, discharging the extinguisher may still be appropriate, depending on the circumstance. Much the same with a cargo container; one may not see the actual source, but penetrating the container and flooding it may buy time.

Then again, it may be more advantageous to wrap the smoker upside the head with the extinguisher, too....
 
stratclub
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:00 pm

We are pretty much on the same page I think. In an emergency situation a clear head and good judgment go a long way to a favorable outcome. Sometimes it is hard to figure out the best course of action. When in doubt, err towards safety.

That said, I am a smoker which I have battled with most of my adult life and seriously I would never try to sneak a smoke on a flight or violate someone else's "airspace".
 
747Whale
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:21 am

It's a bit more difficult on a passenger aircraft. On cargo aircraft, the cargo doesn't care, and it's common for crewmembers to head aft to check the cargo, and come back more relaxed. A coke can with some water in it serves as a makeshift cigarette repository.

Not long ago, some. nitwit flew with the Chief Pilot, and elected to go aft for a cigarette. The chief pilot called him on it, and the best the guy could have hoped for was to apologize....but instead he said "but everyone does it." Wrong answer.

If one is going to speed, don't do it in front of the cop.

In a former life with a different operator, it was standard to go downstairs to the main deck for a smoke, same excuse, to "walk the cargo." A particular flight engineer was fanatical about trying to bust other crew members. A mechanic had a smoke, came back up and went to sleep on one of the racks. He woke up with the flight engineer sniffing him, head to toe, the FE's nose a couple of inches from the mechanic. The mechanic informed the FE that if that ever happened again, death would ensue. The FE used the satphone to call ahead, and said there was air piracy in progress. Police met the aircraft on arrival. It wasn't the first time he pulled that.

All over a cigarette.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:33 am

Hi: My post was deleted. There are still companies that allows smoke cigarretes on long flights.

Rgds
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Yikes!
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:48 am

Yup. Many times. When caught, dealt with accordingly.
 
stratclub
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:31 am

Yikes! wrote:
Yup. Many times. When caught, dealt with accordingly.

Yes, a good manager would have a smoke with the offender then turn them into security. :biggrin:
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:46 pm

Im a CSA for a major US airline and i had a crazy lady threaten to smoke on the plane once the only place she was allowed to smoke was outside security. I told her she would be met by the FBI in her destination if she did.
You know all is right is the world when the only thing people worry about is if the president had sex with a pornstar.


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:53 pm

Im a CSA for a major US airline and i had a crazy lady threaten to smoke on the plane once the only place she was allowed to smoke was outside security. I told her she would be met by the FBI in her destination if she did.
You know all is right is the world when the only thing people worry about is if the president had sex with a pornstar.


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:49 am

Ah, the joys of flying boxes around. Whilst officially being a non-smoking airline, the unofficial rule was no smoking below 10.000ft and check with the skipper first. Never flew with a skipper who said no, and that included flying with the CP and DFO as skippers. Several of our crew members (flight, loadmaster and engineers) smoked like chimneys, and would pop out in the galley area and light up. It was not unusual, if we were carrying loadmaster and engineers, to see 4 guys out the back having a smoke and 1 guy up front taking care of business.

I recall jump seating back to Europe from the ME onboard an Air Icelandic (I think it was called) A310, with 2 crew members and 6 passengers. Everyone but the F/O was a smoker, and between us we probably got through the better part of 5 packs - not least because one of the passengers had brought along 4 bottles of rather nice red, to be enjoyed with the dinner. When we opened the cabin door at destination, a ramper actually asked if we'd had a fire onboard, there was that much smoke coming out the door.
Signature. You just read one.
 
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litz
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:20 pm

747Whale wrote:
As for discharging halon in an enclosed space, be far more worried about the fire than any combustion byproducts of the halon, which will be gone in moments.


Indeed ... Halon may remove the oxygen, but it doesn't remove the heat ... if your heat source isn't the fire itself, soon as the halon dissipates, you reignite.
 
747Whale
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:52 am

That depends if it's a heat source or an ignition source. The heat source may be insufficient for ignition.

I say this as a guy who has spent a lot of years as a firefighter.

You. may have heated structure or any number of other heat sources; this does not mean you have an ignition source. Fire is terminated through interruption of any one of the fire tetrahedron: oxygen, fuel, heat, or interrupting the chemical reaction (pyrolysis: fire).

Halon, on contact with fire, becomes a toxic gas: phosgene. One should be more concerned about the fire, however, and should fight the fire first. Cabin air is quickly replaced; fire can double in size every 60 seconds.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: Pilots/Flight Attendants: has a passenger ever tried to smoke on your flight?

Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:59 pm

litz wrote:
747Whale wrote:
As for discharging halon in an enclosed space, be far more worried about the fire than any combustion byproducts of the halon, which will be gone in moments.


Indeed ... Halon may remove the oxygen, but it doesn't remove the heat ... if your heat source isn't the fire itself, soon as the halon dissipates, you reignite.

Hmm, halon doesn’t remove any oxygen, that’s a common misconception. Halon works by ”inhibiting” the fire process. You can think of it as a reverse catalyzer. A catalyzer ”speeds up” or enables a chemical reaction that would be slow or impossible without the catalyzer. Halon contains bromide (Br), which binds to the hydrogen (H) atoms that would be an important part of the combustion process. By hogging the H atoms, those aren’t available to the oxygen atoms to oxidize (burn), so the fire runs out of free materials to burn. Well, it’s a bit more complicated than that, but you get the idea. A concentration of 8 % is enough to supress a fire. Of course, if the heat remains and there is oxygen and flammable material available, once the concentration drops (perhaps due to ventilation), the fire may start again. In a lavatory onboard an aircraft, one might consider stopping the ventilation, spray some halon in the lav and close the door. The halon concentration would remain high, and may only need topping up every few minutes to keep the fire in check.

Only Halon 1211 can produce phosgene gas (as it contains one Cl atom), but Halon 1301 cannot. Halon 1211 is the most frequent type in hand held Halon extinguishers and 1301 is the type used in stationary Halon installations.

/Fredrik

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