Max Q
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Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:53 am

These vertically opening doors that slide up into the sidewalk and overhead were popular in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s and used on those aircraft


Advantages were ease of operation, no concerns opening in high winds when not using a jetway and when using one they couldn’t get ripped off through mishandling


I liked the clean design and functionality, overall I think the pros outweighed the cons of higher weight and complexity



But these doors haven’t been incorporated
on any subsequent aircraft from any manufacturer I can think of, looks like a feature consigned to aviation history now


Thoughts, comments ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:54 am

Could one of the reasons be that the space above the doors has been taken up by other stuff? Crew rest in the 777 and 350 comes to mind. Above the front galley, so any upward opening doors might encroach.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:45 am

Thing I've wondered: in an emergency when there is no power, how does the door open?
-Doc Lightning-

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Max Q
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:24 am

DocLightning wrote:
Thing I've wondered: in an emergency when there is no power, how does the door open?



There’s a counterweight on the 767 so you
can open it manually, unsure on the DC10/
MD11
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Tristarsteve
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:49 am

Thing I've wondered: in an emergency when there is no power, how does the door open?


With a big spring. On the Tristar there was a counterweight spring box on each door. The doors were driven shut by an electric motor (usually) but you could wind them down with a big handle that was kept on board.(very hard work.) Normal door opening uses this spring. The door opens as the spring unwinds. But put the door in auto, and the slide/raft is uncoupled from the door. Then the door opens very fast and crashes into the ceiling stops, allowing the slide to fall out the door.
The B767 is similar. In normal operation the spring balances the weight of the door. The door can be opened and closed by hand. But in auto with the slide weight removed the door whizzes up into the ceiling.

Dangerous mechanisms to work on. That spring full of energy was always waiting for you to make a mistake so it could hurt you.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:18 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Thing I've wondered: in an emergency when there is no power, how does the door open?



The MD11, and I assume the DC10, use pressurized air from a bottle to open the door.

As for why this type of door has been consigned to the ash heap of engineering history, I suspect it has to do with the cost of maintenance. Lots of additional bits and pieces that go into making those doors work right. The cost/benefit analysis probably works out in favor of the “traditional” door, even though those can be a bitch to rig also.
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stratclub
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:48 pm

On a DC 10 and 767, the the door assist bottle is for emergency use only and opens the door if the escape slide is armed. At one place I did contract maintenance at, "blowing a slide" was instant termination. For normal operation, doors are opened and closed electrically or manually. The 767 only has electric assist on the left side of the aircraft.
 
stratclub
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:39 pm

DC 10 door escape slide emergency deployment. (Blowing a slide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJJbTIn2rM
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:41 pm

On a DC 10 and 767, the the door assist bottle is for emergency use only


B767 does not have a bottle. It uses a spring.
The B757 has an air bottle (the pineapple) for emergency opening.
 
gregorygoodwin
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:07 pm

On our 767F's, the only entry door is the L-1. It has no drive motor on it, you simply unlatch it and give it a gentle push upward until it locks. On these ships the life raft is in a separate compartment forward of the door itself. On the MD10's and MD11's the doors are electrically operated in normal use but, they do have a emergency blow bottle that will force the door up. Next to the MD's doorway on the interior and exterior is a lever that can be set for safe operation or emergency, make sure you check this before you try to open a door! Also, on the MD's, the slide/life raft is in a compartment mounted on the interior of the door. This makes the doors on the MD's heavy, you would probably find it impossible to lift one of these doors by muscle alone. When we change out a slide, it usually takes two people to position it in place on the door. Another maintenance item we see is when someone leaves one of the storage/galley doors open on the MD's and the door is opened. It will catch the storage compartment door on the slide/life raft cover and make a mess of both. Time to get out the repair manuals and get busy!

Gregory
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:35 am

stratclub wrote:
DC 10 door escape slide emergency deployment. (Blowing a slide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJJbTIn2rM


Wow. Impressive. I guess my concern is that if there is damage to the fuselage above the door, the door may not open even under manual force. I'd rather a door that swings. Maybe this is why they don't exist anymore?
-Doc Lightning-

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Max Q
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:06 am

DocLightning wrote:
stratclub wrote:
DC 10 door escape slide emergency deployment. (Blowing a slide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJJbTIn2rM


Wow. Impressive. I guess my concern is that if there is damage to the fuselage above the door, the door may not open even under manual force. I'd rather a door that swings. Maybe this is why they don't exist anymore?




Doubt that


The fuselage could also deform in a manner that would prevent a conventional door opening


I think the reason you don’t see vertical opening cabin doors anymore is weight, complexity and the space they use up
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DocLightning
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:24 am

Max Q wrote:

I think the reason you don’t see vertical opening cabin doors anymore is weight, complexity and the space they use up


I thought the entire idea was that the doors would go up into parts of the fuselage that normally don't get used.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Virtual737
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:32 pm

stratclub wrote:
DC 10 door escape slide emergency deployment. (Blowing a slide)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJJbTIn2rM


Wow that slide is HUGE!
 
Max Q
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:59 am

DocLightning wrote:
Max Q wrote:

I think the reason you don’t see vertical opening cabin doors anymore is weight, complexity and the space they use up


I thought the entire idea was that the doors would go up into parts of the fuselage that normally don't get used.



That used to be true but these days
several long haul aircraft have overhead rest areas for Pilots and cabin crew
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
 
TSS
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:14 am

Max Q wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Max Q wrote:

I think the reason you don’t see vertical opening cabin doors anymore is weight, complexity and the space they use up


I thought the entire idea was that the doors would go up into parts of the fuselage that normally don't get used.


That used to be true but these days several long haul aircraft have overhead rest areas for Pilots and cabin crew


There's still plenty of room for a crew rest area in the crown between doors L1/R1 and L2/R2 or between L3/R3 and L4/R4 (I genuinely have no idea if they're normally located forward or aft of the wings, or if the location of the crew rest area varies by model, manufacturer, and/or customer preference). I suspect it might be more that L1011s and DC-10s/MD-11s were already on the way out by the time overhead crew rest areas were being added to newer aircraft and the manufacturers never saw a need to develop CRAs that would fit between the doors in their open position for those models*.

*Also, if memory serves one or all of the L1011s and DC-10s/MD-11s were available with a galley and/or crew rest area below the main deck.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:28 am

There's not that much space in the crown. If you place the flight crew rest area further back than above the front galley/entrance is that it encroaches on the overhead bins in the first rows. Also, you run into issues with placing the entryway.

The location of the cabin crew rest area on the A350 already robs a few rows of between-aisle seats in the back of their overhead bins.

A350 flight crew rest.
Image

A350 cabin crew rest.
Image
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BravoOne
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:24 pm

FWIW, Swiss Air had an overhead crew rest in FWD overhead in their MD11's. Very clostphobic, but it met their requirements.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:35 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
On a DC 10 and 767, the the door assist bottle is for emergency use only


B767 does not have a bottle. It uses a spring.
The B757 has an air bottle (the pineapple) for emergency opening.


Why different mechanisms for two aircraft designed at the same time and share lots of systems in common?
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:58 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
On a DC 10 and 767, the the door assist bottle is for emergency use only


B767 does not have a bottle. It uses a spring.
The B757 has an air bottle (the pineapple) for emergency opening.


Why different mechanisms for two aircraft designed at the same time and share lots of systems in common?


The 757 and the 767 were more different than the same. The 757 was designed in Renton (home of the 707/727/737) the 767 30 miles north in Everett (home of the 747). Initially a combined Production Acceptance Document was intended but it highlighted the differences so a different document for each was produced.
 
FrmrKSEngr
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:09 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Tristarsteve wrote:
B767 does not have a bottle. It uses a spring.
The B757 has an air bottle (the pineapple) for emergency opening.


Why different mechanisms for two aircraft designed at the same time and share lots of systems in common?


Not as much room in the overhead of the 757 as the 767 to accommodate the upward sliding door. Also different fuselage diameters preclude using common doors for the 767 and 757. The 757 door could/should have a lot of commonality with the 737 door.
 
Flaps
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:10 pm

Perhaps someone with more DC10 experience can correct me but I had always been told that the DC10 doors were very prone to jamming in the manual mode and were a pain in the @$$ to work on and maintain.
 
Max Q
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:02 am

I do remember a mechanic telling us about one of these doors that had gone up and ‘off it’s track’ in the overhead and what a big job it would be to unjam it and get it down
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LHRBFSTrident
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:37 pm

IIRC, the L1011 L1/R1 doors were staggered (i.e. not positioned directly opposite each other in the fuselage) because there wasn't enough space in the crown to accommodate both doors in the raised position at the forward-most location

Also I remember reading a BA L1011 technical manual that stated electric opening was only available on the L1 and L2 entry doors (or was it a B767-336 manual?!)
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Vertically opening doors, L1011 / DC10 / B767

Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:12 pm

LHRBFSTrident wrote:
Also I remember reading a BA L1011 technical manual that stated electric opening was only available on the L1 and L2 entry doors (or was it a B767-336 manual?!)


Can'y speak for the L-1011 or DC-10 / MD-11 but standard fitout for the 763 was that only L1 had power assistance, but that's because most operators took them with L2 and L3 as overwing hatches. BA's had four full-size doors on each side instead and so yes on them both L1 and L2 were powered.

From seeing training videos I do have a recollection that the absence of power assistance is not really a big issue in the scheme of things given that the door is counter-weighted, but it does save the FA having to reach up to pull the unpowered door down - plus (and this is a major IIRC moment) I believe the power mechanism automatically disarmed the slide, which is a nice convenience too.

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