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Typical pre-delivery squawks
During pre-delivery checkouts, what's a typical squawk sheet look like? Are there ever things that trip into flight safety, or is it typically poor carpet fit and the like?
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- GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
What kind of plane? Usually a variety of appearance write-ups, uncommonly more serious ones.
GF
GF
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
Was thinking mainly of airliners...
More serious ones? Do tell. Just curious as to how well the factories get them right right out of the box.
More serious ones? Do tell. Just curious as to how well the factories get them right right out of the box.
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
The larger airlines that have Boeings and Airbus deliveries have full time staff at the factory deliveriy centers that make sure that deliveries are not hindered by significant open issues when the customer acceptance flights are made. Delta was having serious issues with noise levels in the cabin and was considering the rejection of some of the early -800's. Not sure how that was eventually sorted out. I personally do not recall any show stoppers on the MD11 or 777 aircraft that I was involved with.
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
Don't know about pre-delivery squawks, but I've dealt with quite a few delivery squawks, over the years.
A couple that come to mind:
-B757 that started exhibiting external power problems. We found a pin had backed out at the external power relay.
-B757 whose auto-throttle kept disengaging. We found a wire that hadn't been crimped at the TMC.
-B747-8, we chased an HF Data problem, pretty much from day 1. Found a bad crimp in the coax.
There's a few things that crop up, but these stood out because of how long we chased them.
A couple that come to mind:
-B757 that started exhibiting external power problems. We found a pin had backed out at the external power relay.
-B757 whose auto-throttle kept disengaging. We found a wire that hadn't been crimped at the TMC.
-B747-8, we chased an HF Data problem, pretty much from day 1. Found a bad crimp in the coax.
There's a few things that crop up, but these stood out because of how long we chased them.
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- GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
By delivery, the plane is ready, flight 1 and flight 2 might be interesting. I’ve seen an engine fail to relight in-flight. An out-of-rig condition that took a few flights to get right. APU that wouldn’t start at the top of the envelope. Paint and interior issues versus “green” plane are much more common.
GF
GF
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- Newbiepilot
- Posts: 3646
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Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
Galley Mats, nose wheel steering, trim and hydraulic leaks are fairly common. Those are things that are hard to be completely accurate before a plane goes through a pressure cycle. Those aren’t safety issues.
The galley mats issue is due to the plane expanding and contracting causing them to bubble up when pressurized.
The galley mats issue is due to the plane expanding and contracting causing them to bubble up when pressurized.
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
Airlines customer love unresolved squawks because anything not resolved to the customers satisfaction goes to contracts and some dollar amount is deducted from the price of the aircraft. Just depends on the customer and doesn't happen very often though and usually not for anything that affects airworthiness of the aircraft.
If the customer has orders from their home office to drag their heals in accepting the aircraft because of say late financing, they sometimes will write a mountain of "chicken salad" things up.
An important variable is that the longer an airplane is in production the fewer customer write ups their will be. You might say that over time, the factory gets better at manufacturing defect free aircraft.
If the customer has orders from their home office to drag their heals in accepting the aircraft because of say late financing, they sometimes will write a mountain of "chicken salad" things up.
An important variable is that the longer an airplane is in production the fewer customer write ups their will be. You might say that over time, the factory gets better at manufacturing defect free aircraft.
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
The WSJ did an article on this last year on a 787 delivery, if you can get through the paywall:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-inspect-every-piece-of-a-widebody-airplane-1504105684
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-inspect-every-piece-of-a-widebody-airplane-1504105684
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
I guess I'll add my 2 cents worth (32+ years, 10,0000+ hours of production flight test).
Points made by BravoOne, Galaxyflyer and Newbiepilot are all good. Customers dragging their heals is also true but even then their squawks are generally somewhat reasonable and it doesn't happen very often.
As far as Boeing airplanes are concerned the main reason for fewer defects IMHO is how and when the airplane was designed/built. Newer airplanes (747-4, 767, 777 & 787), once the bugs have been worked out, have always had a lower number of B/C flights than any of the 737 models. The main things that have helped decrease the 737 flight rates over the years are design improvements (newer black boxes/engines) or modifications of inflight production tolerances (airplane trim). The factory in all cases has been up to speed very rapidly and in the old days only occasionally faltered when somebody went on vacation.
Points made by BravoOne, Galaxyflyer and Newbiepilot are all good. Customers dragging their heals is also true but even then their squawks are generally somewhat reasonable and it doesn't happen very often.
As far as Boeing airplanes are concerned the main reason for fewer defects IMHO is how and when the airplane was designed/built. Newer airplanes (747-4, 767, 777 & 787), once the bugs have been worked out, have always had a lower number of B/C flights than any of the 737 models. The main things that have helped decrease the 737 flight rates over the years are design improvements (newer black boxes/engines) or modifications of inflight production tolerances (airplane trim). The factory in all cases has been up to speed very rapidly and in the old days only occasionally faltered when somebody went on vacation.
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
dangle wrote:The WSJ did an article on this last year on a 787 delivery, if you can get through the paywall:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-inspect-every-piece-of-a-widebody-airplane-1504105684
Great article, thanks for sharing.
And thanks to all, interesting. (Forgot I had asked the question, oops)
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
You can't stop, I'm not done talking yet.
The Boeing factories in Renton (727,737,757) & Everett (747,767,777,787) generally get it right 99%+ of the time. I never had a concern flying a out of Renton on a B-1 flight -- if you check a map, it's a short runway with a lake at the end -- never got wet.
Historically electronic issues were related to the black boxes (we used to carry a complete set of spares we could change inflight). With improvements in quality/design these days electronic issues are now due to wiring problems (pushed back pins, etc) and there are a lot fewer of them. False engine/cargo fire warnings get your attention in a hurry, as well as engines just quiting but I can count all the ones I've had in my career on one hand plus a couple. Most flights are uneventful, will generate 3-4 squawk sheets (3 squawks to a sheet), and won't require a re-flight prior to the customer flight. It was fun and entertaining -- the view was good and I got to see the sun everyday which is a plus in Seattle.
If you look at the numbers, the Everett airplanes have historically flown 2-3 flights prior to delivery whereas the 737's out of Renton fly 3-4. Many 747/767/777's have delivered having flown only a B-1 and a C-1.
Some customers are more picky than others, some customers let Boeing accept the airplane for them and just show up for delivery.
dakota123 wrote:During pre-delivery checkouts, what's a typical squawk sheet look like? Are there ever things that trip into flight safety, or is it typically poor carpet fit and the like?
Was thinking mainly of airliners...
More serious ones? Do tell. Just curious as to how well the factories get them right right out of the box.
The Boeing factories in Renton (727,737,757) & Everett (747,767,777,787) generally get it right 99%+ of the time. I never had a concern flying a out of Renton on a B-1 flight -- if you check a map, it's a short runway with a lake at the end -- never got wet.
Historically electronic issues were related to the black boxes (we used to carry a complete set of spares we could change inflight). With improvements in quality/design these days electronic issues are now due to wiring problems (pushed back pins, etc) and there are a lot fewer of them. False engine/cargo fire warnings get your attention in a hurry, as well as engines just quiting but I can count all the ones I've had in my career on one hand plus a couple. Most flights are uneventful, will generate 3-4 squawk sheets (3 squawks to a sheet), and won't require a re-flight prior to the customer flight. It was fun and entertaining -- the view was good and I got to see the sun everyday which is a plus in Seattle.
If you look at the numbers, the Everett airplanes have historically flown 2-3 flights prior to delivery whereas the 737's out of Renton fly 3-4. Many 747/767/777's have delivered having flown only a B-1 and a C-1.
Some customers are more picky than others, some customers let Boeing accept the airplane for them and just show up for delivery.
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- Florianopolis
- Posts: 382
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Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
7BOEING7 wrote:The Boeing factories in Renton (727,737,757) & Everett (747,767,777,787) generally get it right 99%+ of the time
Hold on. So you're saying Kansas and South Carolina aren't as good?
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
Florianopolis wrote:7BOEING7 wrote:The Boeing factories in Renton (727,737,757) & Everett (747,767,777,787) generally get it right 99%+ of the time
Hold on. So you're saying Kansas and South Carolina aren't as good?
Boeing does not have a presence in Wichita anymore. http://www.kansas.com/news/business/avi ... 53168.html Subassembly that Boeing used to make there were off loaded to these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_AeroSystems who don't deliver completed aircraft.
Boeing SC started building completed aircraft for delivery in 2012 and are still early in the learning curve so comparing them to the Everett and Renton plants is an unfair comparison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_South_Carolina
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
Florianopolis wrote:7BOEING7 wrote:The Boeing factories in Renton (727,737,757) & Everett (747,767,777,787) generally get it right 99%+ of the time
Hold on. So you're saying Kansas and South Carolina aren't as good?
I retired before SC came online but I would guess they’re just as good as Everett & Renton
Re: Typical pre-delivery squawks
I retired from Flight Test in 2016, and the unofficial word about SC is that in the beginning, as a startup, they were having a rough time. Today? IDK, but I would imagine they are getting better. As an aside, It's just amazing how honked up Everett and Renton get when a new model comes down the production line.
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