BravoOne
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:21 pm

In the front of the Boeing FCTM you will see the words, "APPROVED" by Boeing
ACCEPTED or CONCURRED by the FAA. Legalize I realize and only to become an issue in courts of law. I don't have a Canadian reference so your remarks are probably correct.

The AFM is a FAA approved document of course.
 
OB1504
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:18 pm

bgm wrote:
So basically in the US there are no additional safety precautions when boarding while fuel is being loaded? That's insane! Especially keeping pax seatbelts fastened? No jetbridge requirement for evacuation? A lot of trust is placed in the fuelers it seems... hope they are paid well!


Of course they are! I’ve seen job postings offering a “generous” $9/hour.

SAAFNAV wrote:
Well I'm gonna come out and say that it isn't terribly hard to light it either. Obviously not as easy as gasoline, but all you need is a cigarette lighter.
We routinely light our BBQ fire with some Jet A1 from the fueling manifold after the day's flying.


A lot of things will catch fire if you light them with a cigarette lighter, though.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:22 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
fr8mech wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
In the USA it requires the entry door to be open and the slides armed in the event of an evacuation.


Can you cite the relevant regulation? Or, is this a company procedure?


Since airline ops manuals are legal documents, doesn't this distinction become somewhat academic? ;)

:stirthepot:


His claim is that “In the USA it requires”. That implies an FAA regulation somewhere in 14CFR, and not a procedure specific to a particular operator incorporated in an approved manual.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
If you want a safe space, go home. If that's not safe, change your home.
 
SAAFNAV
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:21 am

OB1504 wrote:
A lot of things will catch fire if you light them with a cigarette lighter, though.


Yes, I for one would know what can and cannot burn with a lighter ;) (Many bored weekends locked in during basic training, we had to experiment with something). My point was rather that it seems a lot of people have the idea that jet fuel is real hard to ignite and almost need a road flare to do it.
L-382 Loadmaster; ex C-130B Navigator
 
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Balerit
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:50 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
SAAFNAV wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Contrary to what you see in movies, jet fuel is not easy to ignite unless you vaporise it. You can drop a burning match in a pot of jet fuel and the match will go out. There have been accidents where evacuating passengers have had to escape through puddles of leaked jet fuel without incident. BA 38 comes to mind.

Precautions should be taken, of course, but unless another vehicle careens into the fuel truck (or the wing) at high speed the risk of fire is quite small.


Well I'm gonna come out and say that it isn't terribly hard to light it either. Obviously not as easy as gasoline, but all you need is a cigarette lighter.
We routinely light our BBQ fire with some Jet A1 from the fueling manifold after the day's flying.


Granted. But it's not like guys on the ramp are carrying a lighted cigarette lighter. The non-smoking and open flame regs tend to be pretty strict.


One of our guys at SAA from Jet Engine Overhaul Shop was busy removing an FCU from an engine. One usually tied rags around your wrists so that the fuel doesn't run down your arms. Two guys walked past the engine and one threw a cigarette butt into the drip tray and the whole lot went up in flames severely burning the poor guy who was removing the FCU. So never ever take a chance as Murphy is always around somewhere.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
BravoOne
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:53 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
bgm wrote:
So basically in the US there are no additional safety precautions when boarding while fuel is being loaded? That's insane! Especially keeping pax seatbelts fastened? No jetbridge requirement for evacuation? A lot of trust is placed in the fuelers it seems... hope they are paid well!

In the USA it requires the entry door to be open and the slides armed in the event of an evacuation. I've relaased thousands of departures and have only twice in 17 years have I EVER had to deplane the cabin,and it was only because the jetway power failed and the passengers were sitting in the dark.as the APU hadn't been started because it was inop and deferred. .


How do you arm the slides with the doors open?
 
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Balerit
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:59 pm

BravoOne wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
bgm wrote:
So basically in the US there are no additional safety precautions when boarding while fuel is being loaded? That's insane! Especially keeping pax seatbelts fastened? No jetbridge requirement for evacuation? A lot of trust is placed in the fuelers it seems... hope they are paid well!

In the USA it requires the entry door to be open and the slides armed in the event of an evacuation. I've relaased thousands of departures and have only twice in 17 years have I EVER had to deplane the cabin,and it was only because the jetway power failed and the passengers were sitting in the dark.as the APU hadn't been started because it was inop and deferred. .


How do you arm the slides with the doors open?


The 'closed doors' must be armed and there must be someone stationed at the open doors at all times.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
BravoOne
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:38 pm

Balerit wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
In the USA it requires the entry door to be open and the slides armed in the event of an evacuation. I've relaased thousands of departures and have only twice in 17 years have I EVER had to deplane the cabin,and it was only because the jetway power failed and the passengers were sitting in the dark.as the APU hadn't been started because it was inop and deferred. .


How do you arm the slides with the doors open?


The 'closed doors' must be armed and there must be someone stationed at the open doors at all times.


Thanks, that makes more sense. Not the way I've seen this done, but at least it;s logical.
 
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kaminari
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:24 am

NFPA 407 (5.11 is the specific section to this topic) is the regulation used in the US for fueling aircraft. The FAA has some regulations but most of them are specific only about fueler training and refer to the latest edition of NFPA 407 and local fire ordinances for everything else. Basically, fueling operations can happen as long as there is safe egress for passengers in the event of an emergency. A jetbridge or airstairs counts as egress. If for some reason there is no egress available during fueling operations (such as a gas and go diversion where no gate is avaliable) then fire rescue will stand by during fueling and the slides will be armed.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:10 am

kaminari wrote:
NFPA 407 (5.11 is the specific section to this topic) is the regulation used in the US for fueling aircraft.


The NFPA does not make laws, they make recommendations that may or may not be adopted into law, rules, regulations, policies, procedures, etc.

If the FAA, or the DOT, has not promulgated a regulation, or Congress has not passed legislation, the NFPA recommendation remains a recommendation.

And, that is why, at least here in The States, the procedures are left up to the individual operator or airport authority.

So, has the FAA or DOT or Congress acted on the NFPA recommendations on this topic? Is there a 14CFRXXX somewhere that addresses this?
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
If you want a safe space, go home. If that's not safe, change your home.
 
kalvado
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:47 pm

fr8mech wrote:
kaminari wrote:
NFPA 407 (5.11 is the specific section to this topic) is the regulation used in the US for fueling aircraft.


The NFPA does not make laws, they make recommendations that may or may not be adopted into law, rules, regulations, policies, procedures, etc.

If the FAA, or the DOT, has not promulgated a regulation, or Congress has not passed legislation, the NFPA recommendation remains a recommendation.

And, that is why, at least here in The States, the procedures are left up to the individual operator or airport authority.

So, has the FAA or DOT or Congress acted on the NFPA recommendations on this topic? Is there a 14CFRXXX somewhere that addresses this?


Good luck explaining that to your insurance company
 
N766UA
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:15 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
In the US pretty much every flight is fueled while boarding/deplaning. Pretty common here.


As long as the main cabin door is open, it’s perfectly acceptable. Happens every day.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:21 pm

kalvado wrote:
Good luck explaining that to your insurance company


Bottom line is, that the NFPA makes recommendations, not regulation.

Your insurance premiums are based on your procedures. So long as you can demonstrate that your procedures are followed, the insurance company will be fine.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
If you want a safe space, go home. If that's not safe, change your home.
 
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kaminari
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:25 am

fr8mech wrote:

The NFPA does not make laws, they make recommendations that may or may not be adopted into law, rules, regulations, policies, procedures, etc.

If the FAA, or the DOT, has not promulgated a regulation, or Congress has not passed legislation, the NFPA recommendation remains a recommendation.

And, that is why, at least here in The States, the procedures are left up to the individual operator or airport authority.

So, has the FAA or DOT or Congress acted on the NFPA recommendations on this topic? Is there a 14CFRXXX somewhere that addresses this?


Check FAA Advisory Circular 150/5230-4B (page 5)
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 230-4B.pdf
FAA Airport Certification Inspectors enforcing 14 CFR PART 139 will look to make sure airport operations and fueling companies are trained on and following the latest NFPA 407. If they aren't, then please let my region's cert inspectors know, lol.
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:42 pm

kaminari wrote:
Check FAA Advisory Circular 150/5230-4B (page 5)
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 230-4B.pdf
FAA Airport Certification Inspectors enforcing 14 CFR PART 139 will look to make sure airport operations and fueling companies are trained on and following the latest NFPA 407. If they aren't, then please let my region's cert inspectors know, lol.

Oh well, you got us now. Will need to notify the FAA about JFK, ORD, SDF, MIA, EWR, etc., etc., etc., because they are clearly in violation.

You’ll find that paragraph 3 on page 11 offers some relief.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
If you want a safe space, go home. If that's not safe, change your home.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:52 pm

keep in mind that the Advisory Circular is just what the title implies...Advisory only.
 
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kaminari
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:28 am

I'm not trying to be obnoxious with my replies, and I'm really not sure what the argument is. It was asked what some rules and regulations are, and I put some out there based on my experience in airport operations. I am not sure what makes them wrong or not applicable or how other airports are in violation as you say.

If you want to browse some local ordinances pertaining to aircraft fueling operations, here is Miami-Dade municipal code for MIA/OPF/TMB Chapter 25-6: https://library.municode.com/fl/miami_- ... HADAARFUOP

And Broward County's municipal code for FLL/HWO Chapter 2, 2-23: https://library.municode.com/fl/broward ... 2-23HASTFU

One last thing I'll leave here is a presentation made at the FAA Airports Southern Region Conference a few months ago in Atlanta from one of the FAA cert inspectors on fueling.
https://www.faa.gov/airports/southern/a ... safety.pdf
 
Apprentice
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:49 am

Hi: Depends on country-airline, there are extra proccedures like:
- unused and “clear” doors, should be “armed”, ready to “fire” an escape slide if needed w/ a crew member on duty, near it till “complete”
- a mechanic will be also on duty, with headset on, connectes and previously checked.

Note: so long, where it say country, you may read France, and where airline- all french companies.

Rgds
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blink182
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:28 pm

DocLightning wrote:
I just came back from Asia (Thailand, Hong Kong, and Taipei) and refueling during boarding seems to be common. About halfway through boarding there'd be a "DING! Refueling complete!" announcement.


Yeah, seems consistent with my experiences in Asia in the last few weeks. I was on EK 385 about two weeks ago, the HKG-BKK-DXB flight that was common ground for a.nutters to try EK F before EK switched in a 2-class A380 on it. The 40-60 of us who were ticketed from HKG to DXB were required to stay on board in BKK and witnessed a parade of cleaners and crew changeover, transfer pax boarding pass/cabin baggage match, luggage loading/unloading plus possibly galley stocking and then of course a lengthy boarding process. Given the 90 minute turn around between flights, I don't see how there would have been a chance for fueling to happen in isolation. There was no mention of it on board.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
Howardt
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Re: Refueling during boarding/deplaning?

Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:48 pm

In Bermuda the regulations requires that fueling gets done after all passengers are off the airplane and before boarding. If addiational fuel is required after boarding has started then the fire service must be called before the fuel be loaded on the airplane.

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