SQ317
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:16 pm

United 772ER ULH Performance/Restrictions

Sat May 26, 2018 7:03 pm

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, I could not find anything using the search function.

I was wondering what sort of restrictions airlines, UA in particular, face when operating the 772ER on very long routes? UA operates the longest 777-200ER route, EWR-HKG at 8065mi in a 267 seat configuration (rising to 292 with the new Polaris/10 abreast economy refit). I realise the 267 seat configuration is a good deal lower than the 313 seats Boeing quotes for a 2 class configuration, but for 313 seats Boeing quotes about 8100 miles range, which doesn't seem to leave much margin for holds, diversions, headwinds, airspace restrictions and so on.

For completeness, a snapshot of lengthy UA 772ER routes:
EWR-HKG 8065mi
EWR-BOM 7807mi
EWR-PVG 7384mi
EWR-DEL 7324mi

Particularly on the longest two, do UA sometimes have to block off seats? I would imagine there's not much scope for belly cargo either? I've heard the 772ER is a bit of a gas guzzler on longer routes (can't remember where, I could be wrong), in which case I would imagine these routes will be early candidates to be replaced by the A359s when they eventually arrive.

Any insight would be welcome, I'm a long time lurker of these forums and am always surprised by the depth of knowledge!
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 10601
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: United 772ER ULH Performance/Restrictions

Sun May 27, 2018 8:21 am

Welcome

SQ317 wrote:
Boeing quotes about 8100 miles range

Keep in mind that Boeing recently recalculated its advertised ranges to reflect what it sees as more "real world" operational scenarios... but they really don't mean much of anything. Heck, the 789 routinely flies distance beyond what the advertised numbers show it's capable of; you have to look at the payload-range curve to get a more realistic idea of what the variants can do.


SQ317 wrote:
I would imagine there's not much scope for belly cargo either?

You'd be surprised. I know that CO used to carrier some cargo to, and plenty from, HKG. I'd imagine that that's only gotten better for UA, considering that they have almost 16yrs of data on that route being operated by the same aircraft.


SQ317 wrote:
I've heard the 772ER is a bit of a gas guzzler on longer routes (can't remember where, I could be wrong)

Compared to the most modern ships now, sure.

But in 2001, when the EWR-HKG route was launched (as the longest roundtrip scheduled service in the world, and the second-longest nonstop route segment) the 77E was the longest ranged aircraft in the world, and easily the most fuel efficient for running the route.

It was still the longest-ranged aircraft at CO's disposal when the other three were launched as well. Apparently, UA sees it as performing its niche well enough to keep it on the routes for the time being. Otherwise they could rotate a 77W or 789 in to take over.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
hitower3
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:55 am

Re: United 772ER ULH Performance/Restrictions

Sun May 27, 2018 8:36 pm

Heck, 8000+nm realistic range on a 772ER, that certainly helps to explain why the niche for the 77-200LR was so small...

Just sayin'...
Hendric
 
trex8
Posts: 5102
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: United 772ER ULH Performance/Restrictions

Sun May 27, 2018 11:06 pm

hitower3 wrote:
Heck, 8000+nm realistic range on a 772ER, that certainly helps to explain why the niche for the 77-200LR was so small...

Just sayin'...
Hendric

Thats 8000 statute miles EWR-HKG, 7000nm.
 
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OneSexyL1011
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: United 772ER ULH Performance/Restrictions

Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:01 am

SQ317 wrote:
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, I could not find anything using the search function.

I was wondering what sort of restrictions airlines, UA in particular, face when operating the 772ER on very long routes? UA operates the longest 777-200ER route, EWR-HKG at 8065mi in a 267 seat configuration (rising to 292 with the new Polaris/10 abreast economy refit). I realise the 267 seat configuration is a good deal lower than the 313 seats Boeing quotes for a 2 class configuration, but for 313 seats Boeing quotes about 8100 miles range, which doesn't seem to leave much margin for holds, diversions, headwinds, airspace restrictions and so on.

For completeness, a snapshot of lengthy UA 772ER routes:
EWR-HKG 8065mi
EWR-BOM 7807mi
EWR-PVG 7384mi
EWR-DEL 7324mi

Particularly on the longest two, do UA sometimes have to block off seats? I would imagine there's not much scope for belly cargo either? I've heard the 772ER is a bit of a gas guzzler on longer routes (can't remember where, I could be wrong), in which case I would imagine these routes will be early candidates to be replaced by the A359s when they eventually arrive.

Any insight would be welcome, I'm a long time lurker of these forums and am always surprised by the depth of knowledge!

I have a lot of experience with these flights on several fronts and here is some info I can provide.

All of the routes you have listed are all operated by C model versions of the 200ER here at UA, and I can say that every one of these flights will operate with a full passenger load. Seats are not blocked, however sometimes some (HKG) or all (BOM) cargo is left behind in order to accommodate all passengers and bags. Flights to and from HKG generally go polar so they do not have to fight strong headwinds for a large portion of their flight, and the BOM east bound generally uses jet stream assistance. West bound from BOM, the flight is far enough north that they are north of the jet stream. Performance limitations out of EWR are generally structurally limited unless it is very hot. When temps get hotter than 35C at departure we really start paying attention, but with a few tweaks we can still get structural. (656K LBS)

Where it gets complicated is out of HKG and BOM coming home. HKG can get very hot in the summer so performance can be somewhat limited. Lots of cargo coming out of China and more often than not some of it is left behind.

BOM, hot temps and very limiting runway performance. Especially if it rains as wet take off numbers are extremely limiting. (runway isn't crowned and grooved) It isn't uncommon for the flight to leave with a much lower planned arrival fuel than other flights into EWR. Luckily it lands very early in the morning when traffic is at its lowest for the NYC area.

The dispatchers that plan these flights are highly experienced and know these flights well. A lot of fine tunning goes into the plans in order to complete the mission.

DEL, PVG, PEK generally are not limited and can usually carry a full unrestricted load.
 
DaveFly
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:35 pm

Re: United 772ER ULH Performance/Restrictions

Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:50 am

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
SQ317 wrote:
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, I could not find anything using the search function.

I was wondering what sort of restrictions airlines, UA in particular, face when operating the 772ER on very long routes? UA operates the longest 777-200ER route, EWR-HKG at 8065mi in a 267 seat configuration (rising to 292 with the new Polaris/10 abreast economy refit). I realise the 267 seat configuration is a good deal lower than the 313 seats Boeing quotes for a 2 class configuration, but for 313 seats Boeing quotes about 8100 miles range, which doesn't seem to leave much margin for holds, diversions, headwinds, airspace restrictions and so on.

For completeness, a snapshot of lengthy UA 772ER routes:
EWR-HKG 8065mi
EWR-BOM 7807mi
EWR-PVG 7384mi
EWR-DEL 7324mi

Particularly on the longest two, do UA sometimes have to block off seats? I would imagine there's not much scope for belly cargo either? I've heard the 772ER is a bit of a gas guzzler on longer routes (can't remember where, I could be wrong), in which case I would imagine these routes will be early candidates to be replaced by the A359s when they eventually arrive.

Any insight would be welcome, I'm a long time lurker of these forums and am always surprised by the depth of knowledge!

I have a lot of experience with these flights on several fronts and here is some info I can provide.

All of the routes you have listed are all operated by C model versions of the 200ER here at UA, and I can say that every one of these flights will operate with a full passenger load. Seats are not blocked, however sometimes some (HKG) or all (BOM) cargo is left behind in order to accommodate all passengers and bags. Flights to and from HKG generally go polar so they do not have to fight strong headwinds for a large portion of their flight, and the BOM east bound generally uses jet stream assistance. West bound from BOM, the flight is far enough north that they are north of the jet stream. Performance limitations out of EWR are generally structurally limited unless it is very hot. When temps get hotter than 35C at departure we really start paying attention, but with a few tweaks we can still get structural. (656K LBS)

Where it gets complicated is out of HKG and BOM coming home. HKG can get very hot in the summer so performance can be somewhat limited. Lots of cargo coming out of China and more often than not some of it is left behind.

BOM, hot temps and very limiting runway performance. Especially if it rains as wet take off numbers are extremely limiting. (runway isn't crowned and grooved) It isn't uncommon for the flight to leave with a much lower planned arrival fuel than other flights into EWR. Luckily it lands very early in the morning when traffic is at its lowest for the NYC area.

The dispatchers that plan these flights are highly experienced and know these flights well. A lot of fine tunning goes into the plans in order to complete the mission.

DEL, PVG, PEK generally are not limited and can usually carry a full unrestricted load.


Very interesting comments about ULH from Newark. Do you know of any pilot trip reports for polar flights that are available for reading on the internet? The only ones I’ve seen are passenger reports, and they’re not interesting to me. I’d enjoy reading about planning, flight ops, pics. Thank you.
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SQ317
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:16 pm

Re: United 772ER ULH Performance/Restrictions

Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:22 am

Thank you all for your insightful and informative replies
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 18327
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: United 772ER ULH Performance/Restrictions

Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:42 am

DaveFly wrote:
OneSexyL1011 wrote:
SQ317 wrote:
Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, I could not find anything using the search function.

I was wondering what sort of restrictions airlines, UA in particular, face when operating the 772ER on very long routes? UA operates the longest 777-200ER route, EWR-HKG at 8065mi in a 267 seat configuration (rising to 292 with the new Polaris/10 abreast economy refit). I realise the 267 seat configuration is a good deal lower than the 313 seats Boeing quotes for a 2 class configuration, but for 313 seats Boeing quotes about 8100 miles range, which doesn't seem to leave much margin for holds, diversions, headwinds, airspace restrictions and so on.

For completeness, a snapshot of lengthy UA 772ER routes:
EWR-HKG 8065mi
EWR-BOM 7807mi
EWR-PVG 7384mi
EWR-DEL 7324mi

Particularly on the longest two, do UA sometimes have to block off seats? I would imagine there's not much scope for belly cargo either? I've heard the 772ER is a bit of a gas guzzler on longer routes (can't remember where, I could be wrong), in which case I would imagine these routes will be early candidates to be replaced by the A359s when they eventually arrive.

Any insight would be welcome, I'm a long time lurker of these forums and am always surprised by the depth of knowledge!

I have a lot of experience with these flights on several fronts and here is some info I can provide.

All of the routes you have listed are all operated by C model versions of the 200ER here at UA, and I can say that every one of these flights will operate with a full passenger load. Seats are not blocked, however sometimes some (HKG) or all (BOM) cargo is left behind in order to accommodate all passengers and bags. Flights to and from HKG generally go polar so they do not have to fight strong headwinds for a large portion of their flight, and the BOM east bound generally uses jet stream assistance. West bound from BOM, the flight is far enough north that they are north of the jet stream. Performance limitations out of EWR are generally structurally limited unless it is very hot. When temps get hotter than 35C at departure we really start paying attention, but with a few tweaks we can still get structural. (656K LBS)

Where it gets complicated is out of HKG and BOM coming home. HKG can get very hot in the summer so performance can be somewhat limited. Lots of cargo coming out of China and more often than not some of it is left behind.

BOM, hot temps and very limiting runway performance. Especially if it rains as wet take off numbers are extremely limiting. (runway isn't crowned and grooved) It isn't uncommon for the flight to leave with a much lower planned arrival fuel than other flights into EWR. Luckily it lands very early in the morning when traffic is at its lowest for the NYC area.

The dispatchers that plan these flights are highly experienced and know these flights well. A lot of fine tunning goes into the plans in order to complete the mission.

DEL, PVG, PEK generally are not limited and can usually carry a full unrestricted load.


Very interesting comments about ULH from Newark. Do you know of any pilot trip reports for polar flights that are available for reading on the internet? The only ones I’ve seen are passenger reports, and they’re not interesting to me. I’d enjoy reading about planning, flight ops, pics. Thank you.


You mean apart from the tedium of sitting there for hours and hours with nothing much happening? ;)

Some tidbits:
- EDTO is obviously a big consideration when it comes to MEL items.
- Flying between East Asia and the US East Coast, if you're using a polar routing, during a significant portion of the flight your alternate may be in Norway or Finland.
- Your oceanic clearance may well come from Rekyavik.
- Your closest EDTO alternate may be almost four hours of single-engine flying away, and unlike most other EDTO routes there really isn't any other adequate runway around.
- The northern lights are not uncommonly seen. Santa is more elusive.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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