NWA34
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Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 5:29 am

Many airlines open long haul flights to new destinations, or operate limited (e.g. weekly) frequencies. I have always been curious, how do carriers handle crew/staffing for the return flight in this situation?

Example: Flight 1 departs a base station for a brand new (or 1x weekly) flight to a remote outstation. After arriving, the flight turns around and flies back home as Flight 2 only 2-3 hours later. Do the return crew fly out in advance on another carrier to "meet" the incoming "day one"/weekly flight, or do they deadhead for 12 hours in crew rest, only to turn around 3 hours later and fly the return 12 hours?
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 6:33 am

The operating crew on the return sector would arrive 1 or 2 days before, deadheading with their carrier to a closer existing destination in the network, then another carrier to the final destination.
 
questions
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 6:48 am

And if 1x weekly, how about the outbound crew? Do they return or hang out for a week?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 6:57 am

First of all, there aren't that many 1x weekly (or even fortnightly or monthly (!!!)) longhaul flights left anymore, compared to a couple of decades ago. Strangely enough, both that come to my mind involve HAV: CA's PEK-YUL-HAV and DT's LAD-HAV (Also, is MOW-HAV more than weekly now, to complete HAV's hattrick in this field? Haven't looked it up.)

But I guess your question was more about the inaugural flight, not about the economcs of keeping a crew at destination for a full week... While eta unknown is totally correct, there are also exceptions, where the airline deems it more economical to have like a 12 or 15 hour turnaround and use the same crew fly the return flight. There are even extreme exceptions, like when BA started LHR-LAD. There, the crew stayed onboard for their required rest, before flying the aircraft back to London, as it was deemed that their security during the transfer to a hotel in central Luanda couldn't be guaranteed.

Edit: There is also the SVO-IAD weekly flight by SU, of course.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 7:06 am

questions wrote:
And if 1x weekly, how about the outbound crew? Do they return or hang out for a week?

This is why these flights are rare these days.

If you look at the flights I took as an example in my post above, CA's crew almost certainly flies YUL-HAV-YUL. They either stay in Montreal (if CA have terminator flights there and fly one of those back after 2-3 days), or fly to Toronto/New York....depending on where a nearby destination using the same aircraft type is.
SU surely moves their crew to/from Washington D.C. from New York in the same way.
CU in Moscow and DT in Havana...I guess they get a week of sightseeing. (20 years ago, when I was with CU, that was definitely the case in Moscow. Although flights were 2x weekly at periods back then.)
 
GRJGeorge
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 7:33 am

Think I read somewhere before that the DT flight is the same crew returning, the aircraft remains in HAV for the same period (a day or so before doing the return leg?)
 
DominoxX
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 7:54 am

I wonder what's the case for LA's 1 weekly SCL-IPC-PPT, TAAG's weekly Luanda-Havana. I can picture TAAG's crew staying in Havana for a week after such a long flight, but a whole week in Papeete for Latam? These airlines serve no other destinations in the vicinity for the crew to serve. Or Latam's crew then flies to Auckland to operate the AKL-SCL leg perhaps? yet AKL only has 2x weekly flights from PPT
All I need in life is a QF/LA biz seat for me and my malinois doggo, edibles and the 2000's best diva hits
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 8:06 am

DominoxX wrote:
I wonder what's the case for LA's 1 weekly SCL-IPC-PPT, TAAG's weekly Luanda-Havana. I can picture TAAG's crew staying in Havana for a week after such a long flight, but a whole week in Papeete for Latam? These airlines serve no other destinations in the vicinity for the crew to serve. Or Latam's crew then flies to Auckland to operate the AKL-SCL leg perhaps? yet AKL only has 2x weekly flights from PPT

See post above yours for reply on DT at HAV. Don't the LA crew operate IPC-PPT-IPC? And is that flight just weekly nowadays??
 
cedarjet
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 8:44 am

Often for a once-a-week flight, crew park the plane for 14h or so and get minimum rest in an airport hotel and then come back to the plane and fly it home. Leaving a jet on a remote stand for half a day is cheaper than sticking a crew on wages and per diems in a hotel for a week
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
BAWLGW
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 9:12 am

When I use to fly, and whenever my airline opened up a new route, the airline would indeed send a full Crew compliment out prior to the inaugural return flight. Normally we would fly out on our own airline to a destination close to the new route, and then if needed catch another flight to take us to our final destination!
 
GRJGeorge
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 9:33 am

According to TAAG's schedules the LAD-HAV flight arrives in HAV on a Monday morning at 07:00am. The return HAV-LAD is only on Tuesday then, departing 12:15pm.
So that's 29hours on the ground at HAV.
 
bananaboy
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 9:55 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
First of all, there aren't that many 1x weekly (or even fortnightly or monthly (!!!)) longhaul flights left anymore, compared to a couple of decades ago....


Whilst that's true for scheduled flights, there's still a fair amount of weekly or twice weekly longhaul charter / holiday flights around, at least from the UK.

For example, Thomas Cook timetable shows several operating this coming winter and next summer.

https://www.thomascookairlines.com/en/b ... etable.jsp

Tui will no doubt offer similar schedules.

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
cragley
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 9:55 am

I spoke to LA crew and they advised that they never overnight in Sydney, only AKL.

SCL to AKL (break)

AKL SYD AKL (break)

AKL SCL
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 10:23 am

cragley wrote:
I spoke to LA crew and they advised that they never overnight in Sydney, only AKL.

SCL to AKL (break)

AKL SYD AKL (break)

AKL SCL

While that is how most tag-on flights are operated (if the block time of the tag-on flights permit it), I fail to see how that is relevant to the scope of this thread. Especially since LA no longer fly to AKL.
 
a350lover
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 11:04 am

As a matter of fact, per diems and crew wages are not anymore what they used to be anyway. Said that, for crew availability and ease of operations, airlines try to keep crew rest at minimum, so that they can maximize crew and A/C utilisation. In short haul, I believe most of the overnights involve just 10/12hrs rest. Although this is quite sad, I guess this has affected all airlines in the same way.

Some long haul airlines, mainly at first, offer some nice 2,3,4 night layovers i.e. Norwegian, Level, etc. This often tends to stop occurring as the frequencies to destinations increase. The length of the layover I would say depends on the airline you look at. The more "regular" and connecting pax the way they operate is, the less amount of long layovers. If you look at charter airline schedules, here in Spain Wamos' crews often stay for a week in Punta Cana. This is only because they mainly fly for other airlines, and have very limited regular operations. Emirates used to have some long layovers at first, when they only flew to a small list of destinations using the A380s. As destinations increased, they stopped enjoying those 2-3 full days in places like Toronto if I remember well...

I assume that for the opening of new routes, they fly via other routes the outbound crew for the return of the first flight out of base.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 3:10 pm

I spoke with a KE A330 captain who deadheaded into SYD with his crew 2 days before they were to operate the first KE A330 flight when the aircraft seasonally changed from the 747 to the A330. Seasonal equipment type changes are another reason a crew would need to be put in place to operate the first inbound flight whilst the crew of the first outbound flight has their rest.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9,306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 5:36 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
DominoxX wrote:
I wonder what's the case for LA's 1 weekly SCL-IPC-PPT, TAAG's weekly Luanda-Havana. I can picture TAAG's crew staying in Havana for a week after such a long flight, but a whole week in Papeete for Latam? These airlines serve no other destinations in the vicinity for the crew to serve. Or Latam's crew then flies to Auckland to operate the AKL-SCL leg perhaps? yet AKL only has 2x weekly flights from PPT

See post above yours for reply on DT at HAV. Don't the LA crew operate IPC-PPT-IPC? And is that flight just weekly nowadays??


IPC-PPT is 6 hours, so I think they do use an augmented crew with a 14 hour duty day and do the IPC-PPT-IPC turn.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 6:29 pm

What happens if a crew member designated for the return trip falls ill? Can they run the flight with some bumped seats?
 
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Rookie87
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sat May 19, 2018 11:41 pm

Matt6461 wrote:
What happens if a crew member designated for the return trip falls ill? Can they run the flight with some bumped seats?


Probably won’t matter since most airlines operate with more than FAA minimum crew. They would just depart minus the sick crew member.
 
matt
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Sun May 20, 2018 1:13 am

In the case of charter airlines that operate long-haul flights to destinations only 1 or 2 times a week, I can relate the experience I had as a flight attendant for a Canadian charter airline. When flights were flown to destinations only once or twice a week, in order to reduce layover times, the airline would often have us deadhead to another destination in order to operate a flight back home. Example:

1 YYZ-AMS
2 arrive AMS + layover
3 deadhead to BRU
4 BRU-YUL + deadhead to YYZ

Other interesting pairings:

1 YYZ-MAN
2 arrive MAN + layover
3 deadhead MAN-LIS-PDL
4 PDL-YYZ

Or this one:

1 YYZ-LHR
2 arrive LHR+ layover
3 LHR-YYC-YVR
4 YVR-YEG-AMS
5 arrive AMS
6 day in AMS
7 AMS-YYC-YVR
1 day in YVR
2 YVR-LHR
3 arrive LHR
4 deadhead LHR-MAN
5 MAN-YYZ

There were other 12 and 15 pairings like that. Quite exhausting, but they made the most of the their crews!

M.
Next flights: YQM-YUL-MIA-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-LYS-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-FRA-MLA-FRA-YUL-YQM
 
cragley
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Thu May 24, 2018 1:08 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
cragley wrote:
I spoke to LA crew and they advised that they never overnight in Sydney, only AKL.

SCL to AKL (break)

AKL SYD AKL (break)

AKL SCL

While that is how most tag-on flights are operated (if the block time of the tag-on flights permit it), I fail to see how that is relevant to the scope of this thread. Especially since LA no longer fly to AKL.





LATAM still flies to AKL and onto SYD, do you have news that hasn't yet been announced?

This thread is about crew logistics, so the comments are directly related to LA and their crew positioning for addon flights.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Thu May 24, 2018 1:38 pm

cragley wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
cragley wrote:
I spoke to LA crew and they advised that they never overnight in Sydney, only AKL.

SCL to AKL (break)

AKL SYD AKL (break)

AKL SCL

While that is how most tag-on flights are operated (if the block time of the tag-on flights permit it), I fail to see how that is relevant to the scope of this thread. Especially since LA no longer fly to AKL.





LATAM still flies to AKL and onto SYD, do you have news that hasn't yet been announced?

This thread is about crew logistics, so the comments are directly related to LA and their crew positioning for addon flights.

No. This thread is about first flights to a new destination, or crew management on once-a-week flights. There are hundreds of tag-on flights in the world, which are of no interest to this thread.
 
matt
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Wed May 30, 2018 4:02 pm

Does anyone have any concrete of how airlines such as Condor, Thomas Cook, Edelweiss, Thomson, etc. schedule their crews who fly to Caribbean islands only once or twice a week? I imagine that they sometimes have their crews deadhead to another destination in order to avoid layover costs. I have heard of some airlines chartering smaller aircraft to charter their crews as this is sometimes easier than having them deadhead on another airline.
Next flights: YQM-YUL-MIA-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-LYS-YUL-YQM / YQM-YUL-FRA-MLA-FRA-YUL-YQM
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Wed May 30, 2018 6:23 pm

It depends on the airline and logistics of the flights...

For instance UAs “Island Hopper” is run augmented with 2 crews and a 5 day layover in HNL. The A flight crew does all the hops except the last one to HNL- where they switch with the crew who has been sitting in first the whole time. Then both crews layover in HNL for 5 days to operate the Hopper back. A crew takes the first leg out of HNL and then the B crew flies the airplane all the way back.

When DL served ROR from NRT, I believe it was a 1 weekly flight. It would be a LAX crew who Would get to NRT, overnight, fly the leg down to ROR, stay for 96 hours. After their week long paid vacation, they would fly the plane back to NRT, overnight, and then continue back towards LAX.

Obviously with ROR, there were limited options to move crews around- so It made sense to leave them there for the week, with other operations it may be more economical to let the aircraft sit for 24-36 hours and keep the same crew.
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andyman977
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:53 am

What about cargo airlines that might not fly hub and spoke?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:17 am

andyman977 wrote:
What about cargo airlines that might not fly hub and spoke?


Lots and lots of deadheading...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
andyman977
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:21 am

Starlionblue wrote:
andyman977 wrote:
What about cargo airlines that might not fly hub and spoke?


Lots and lots of deadheading...


Interesting. I assume they are paid for that?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:31 am

andyman977 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
andyman977 wrote:
What about cargo airlines that might not fly hub and spoke?


Lots and lots of deadheading...


Interesting. I assume they are paid for that?


That depends on the contract.

Another consideration is the effect, or lack of effect, of deadheading on flight time limitations.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
airman99o
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:57 am

Oh the good old days!
Flew for Skyservice airlines from 2001 to 2010. Cabin Crew. First Entry into the Cabin Crew world. What a world!!! We had some amazing layovers. longest I did which was a normal flight, was a Full 9 days in DUB from YYZ. Flight would depart evening around 2300 Always late... :-P. Arrived the following day, Crew greet at the stairs on the jet bridge, hand over return flight and say see you in 9. our perdium was damn good. Leave DUB at 10:30, stop at SNN or sometimes Direct back to YYZ, 6 Days LIS, 6 Days FCO, 7 Days SUF. 5 Days VIE. 4 Days LGW, MAN, EDH, GLA . 8 Day BFS. There was also a few seasons a Jetstream or Beech 1900 was bouncing us across Europe between Italian cities and over to Dublin. Spent a winter Flying out of YVR doing 8 Day layovers in LIR, HOG, MBJ, 4 Day VRA.

We would also do sub charters. I personally did 20 days Days with Ghana Airways ACC-BMI, ACC-JFK, Crews did a lot more than I as it was a long running contract Until bills started going unpaid. 3 Months in BOS flying for TNT Vacations, 5 Weeks Teeside ( MME ) with our sister company My Travel / Airtours. DHS Flying brought me to LIS. SAL, LOS, TIA. 8 days away from home base. Lauda / Livingston 17 days between MXP and the Caribbean , PUJ, MBJ, POP.
This was flying that was available to Bid on, or knew in advance it was coming up in a bidding window, Sometimes you would be on a stretch of days off, phone would ring and ask if you could go and bounce half way across the globe on some odd charter that someone just asked for, Clothing companies, Sports Teams, Fire Fighters, Military.
Safety is Everyones Responsibility.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Long Haul Crew Logistics: Day One or Weekly

Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:29 pm

Example at JFK: for the 3x weekly FOC-JFK flight, a morning FOC departure on Days 1, 3, and 6, over the winter, on a Wednesday this year, a storm meant the flight on Wednesday could not come. To avoid having to pay extra for the crew already in New York to overnight further, that flight was pushed back 25 hours, because while I don't know crewing requirements in China, it is very likely that MF needs to have two complete sets of crews for this flight (4 pilots and 12 FAs minimum - the forward flight is blocked at 14:30 and the return flight at 15:30).

For this destination, since XiamenAir is a division of China Southern, I would suspect that the return crews deadheaded via CAN to JFK (CZ serves JFK daily). It becomes a bit more difficult for a sub-daily flight that requires 2 complete crews.

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