I am trying to understand how these work in the real world (so that I can take full advantage of the ToLiSs A319 fully-functional FMC in X-Plane11). Maybe someone who knows all about this could kindly give me some help?
I am OK with programming SIDs and STARs, but the FMC often then presents me with a list of transitions and then vias. In essence, how do I choose whether to use one, and if I do, which to fly?
As an example, I am flying VOMM (Rwy07) to VOHS (09R). Chosen DOHIA as SID and SARKA8 at STAR. In this example, no STAR transition is offered.. but if it were (on another route say), how would I go about choosing the most appropriate one? I can't see them on my map (I use LittleNavMap) - maybe I haven't activated them - so I might as well choose by sticking a pin in...
Then I am offered Vias - BIMO2, HIA1, HIA2, LEDOB, OSEM2 or VIKA2. Again, though I have Googled this, I still am not confident enough to choose one (it would be random again). On this flight, whatever I choose, I get a discontinuity towards the end of the flight plan.
If anyone can explain this in practical terms, or point me too a not overly techy article, that's be appreciated.
Finally, although I choose and programme SIDs & STARs OK, I am not sure of the logic of some of them. In the above example, if you are able to look at the SARKA8 STAR on your won flight map, why the odd shape (sharp turns at HS321 and then HS228)? Why wouldn't the STAR go straight to HS228 and miss HS321. Don't think there are any terrain issues here - in fact given the elevations, why go to HS321 at all?
Thanks in advance!
Martin
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
Preferred ATC routings are usually about traffic flow, especially for very busy airports and airspace.
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- GalaxyFlyer
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Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
Enter what ATC clears you to fly.
GF
GF
Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
I don't have access to Indian or Jepp charts for those areas at the moment, but you'll use the transitions that put you on the airways or flightplan filing (if you auto file). On the DOHIA SID you have the DORAM transition for Bravo 466 and November 571 BODEL for W20 and W47N. You can fly these airways (or direct if RNAV equipped and above OROCA/MRA) to the transition of you filing/assigned flightplan on the arrival.
You can file whatever is shortest distance or best winds, but if it goes against the flow or ATC doesn't like it they will amend it when they assign your clearance or for the STAR, possbly enroute.
You can file whatever is shortest distance or best winds, but if it goes against the flow or ATC doesn't like it they will amend it when they assign your clearance or for the STAR, possbly enroute.
Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
The discontinuity implies the STAR transition fix does not share a waypoint with an enroute airway. Some FMS's require you to select 'direct to' RNAV to navigate between these two points.
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- Martinlest
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Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
"Enter what ATC clears you to fly"
??? Sorry, no idea what that means. I am setting up the FMC at departure - there's no landing clearance. Even on approach, ATC doesn't clear me for a specific transition.
The point really is, what do I select for transitions/vias at the departure airport when I am setting up the plan in the CDU? The options are rpesented at that stage.
??? Sorry, no idea what that means. I am setting up the FMC at departure - there's no landing clearance. Even on approach, ATC doesn't clear me for a specific transition.
The point really is, what do I select for transitions/vias at the departure airport when I am setting up the plan in the CDU? The options are rpesented at that stage.
Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
Martinlest wrote:"Enter what ATC clears you to fly"
??? Sorry, no idea what that means. I am setting up the FMC at departure - there's no landing clearance. Even on approach, ATC doesn't clear me for a specific transition.
The point really is, what do I select for transitions/vias at the departure airport when I am setting up the plan in the CDU? The options are rpesented at that stage.
When you are initializing the FMS on the ground you will program it for what you filed.
For example: LAX to LAS:
You file SEBBY2 DAG CLARR3. The Daggit VOR is a transition both on the DP and STAR in this case.
The Syntax of each FMS is different based on manufacturer, but most go like this: You program Departure airport->RUNWAY->DP->Transition->Enroute(none in this case)->Arrival Airport->STAR->Transition->Arrival Runway.
So you'd program LAX-25R-SEBBY2-DAGGIT transition-LAS-CLARR3-DAGGIT-07R
Then you call clearance delivery. They will read your clearance that you filed or an amended clearance if they don't like it:
"Cleared to LAS, climb via the SID, expect 210 in 3min, departure 123.4, squak code etc.. "
That means you are good to go on what you filed, dial in the top altitude of the SID and just make the fix restrictions.
Enroute you will receive a "desend via" clearance, which allows you to dial in the bottom of the STAR and VNAV down (if your aircraft is equipped for that).
Other than that I don't quite understand what you are asking, maybe be more specific.
Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
It' doesnt really matter what you input into the CDU. If you fly something that ATC does not clear you to fly, you could be subject to enforcement action.
You put in the company flight plan, but along the way ATC clears you to do something different, you modify the flight plan in the FMS to match what ATC clears you to fly.
This really wasn't an issue before RNAV. Now that there are multiple RNAV arrivals and departures, sometimes it's just best to have all of the arrivals laid out so you can see them visually.
Since this is a flight sim, you pick the arrival that matches up with your last enroute way point. The transition "transitions" you from the enroute airspace to the terminal arrival.
The same for departures, the SID transition transitions you from the terminal area into the enroute airspace. So if you have all of the SIDs laid out visually, you pick the SID which ends at your first enroute fix.
Sometimes there are multiple SIDs with transitions that end up at the same enroute fix. Then the specific SID may be determined by takeoff runway or certain airport configurations.
You put in the company flight plan, but along the way ATC clears you to do something different, you modify the flight plan in the FMS to match what ATC clears you to fly.
This really wasn't an issue before RNAV. Now that there are multiple RNAV arrivals and departures, sometimes it's just best to have all of the arrivals laid out so you can see them visually.
Since this is a flight sim, you pick the arrival that matches up with your last enroute way point. The transition "transitions" you from the enroute airspace to the terminal arrival.
The same for departures, the SID transition transitions you from the terminal area into the enroute airspace. So if you have all of the SIDs laid out visually, you pick the SID which ends at your first enroute fix.
Sometimes there are multiple SIDs with transitions that end up at the same enroute fix. Then the specific SID may be determined by takeoff runway or certain airport configurations.
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- GalaxyFlyer
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Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
ATC clears you on a route, via SID, airways, and STAR. The clearance will often be close to the filed (requested) routing, but the FMC MUST be programmed with the cleared routing. ATC will specify “cleared to VOHS via ....SID...”. Somewhere nearing VOHS, ATC will issue a clearance to the STAR transition fix and the STAR.
GF
GF
Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
I think the OP needs a bit of background as well.
Basically, on any major airport you will have a path leading to departure (or arrival). Most of them now are able to lead the plane point-to-point all the way on auto.
Departure selection is sort of workflow-like thing (for IT guys that's probably more than enough, for others - there's a sequence of selections/choices you go with).
During departure, you (or ATC) will decide on:
1. departure runway;
2. SID (this is dependant on runway - could be one, or many possible leading to first point of route)
3. transition if required. Most of SIDs will end up at first point of route, however there are airports where SID ends up at some VOR, or intersection, which no longer is a route part; in that case there will be a couple of transitions to lead you onto route intersection.
Example: http://vau.aero/navdb/chart/KJFK.pdf; page 12, see "Routing" section right-down for description of transitions beyond SID (known as Kennedy3).
On arrival, it's quite similar. You get the landing runway, use STAR. The only difference is, in some cases transition for arrival is there to organize traffic. In other, it's there as an extension, exactly the same way as with SIDs.
Example (STAR extension): old chart of JFK, http://vau.aero/navdb/chart/KJFK.pdf; see page 4 showing CAMRN4 STAR extended to SIE VOR.
Example (organize traffic): http://www.fly-sea.com/charts/EDDF.pdf; see page 10 for IOSMAX arrival extended by 07 transition. They serve an ATC to organize traffic within approach zone.
Hope that helps to understand how it works, and how to use these.
Cheers,
Adam
Basically, on any major airport you will have a path leading to departure (or arrival). Most of them now are able to lead the plane point-to-point all the way on auto.
Departure selection is sort of workflow-like thing (for IT guys that's probably more than enough, for others - there's a sequence of selections/choices you go with).
During departure, you (or ATC) will decide on:
1. departure runway;
2. SID (this is dependant on runway - could be one, or many possible leading to first point of route)
3. transition if required. Most of SIDs will end up at first point of route, however there are airports where SID ends up at some VOR, or intersection, which no longer is a route part; in that case there will be a couple of transitions to lead you onto route intersection.
Example: http://vau.aero/navdb/chart/KJFK.pdf; page 12, see "Routing" section right-down for description of transitions beyond SID (known as Kennedy3).
On arrival, it's quite similar. You get the landing runway, use STAR. The only difference is, in some cases transition for arrival is there to organize traffic. In other, it's there as an extension, exactly the same way as with SIDs.
Example (STAR extension): old chart of JFK, http://vau.aero/navdb/chart/KJFK.pdf; see page 4 showing CAMRN4 STAR extended to SIE VOR.
Example (organize traffic): http://www.fly-sea.com/charts/EDDF.pdf; see page 10 for IOSMAX arrival extended by 07 transition. They serve an ATC to organize traffic within approach zone.
Hope that helps to understand how it works, and how to use these.
Cheers,
Adam
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- Starlionblue
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Re: SIDs/STARs/Transitions/Vias. Some practical advice, please?
Martinlest wrote:"Enter what ATC clears you to fly"
??? Sorry, no idea what that means. I am setting up the FMC at departure - there's no landing clearance. Even on approach, ATC doesn't clear me for a specific transition.
The point really is, what do I select for transitions/vias at the departure airport when I am setting up the plan in the CDU? The options are rpesented at that stage.
Prior to departure,you will have a departure clearance with the SID. So set that up. Then set up the expected STAR. You can always change it later when you get the actual STAR during the cruise. At my airline, and I expect others, airport notes will typically state the expected STAR and approach.