Hi Everyone,

With the new standard of A321 ACF cabin, an operator can go with the further in terms of capacity :

Exit limits, front and rear door plus:
- one overwing exit = 165 passengers
- two overwing exits = 195 passengers
- one overwing exit and door 3 = 210 passengers
- two overwing exits and door 3 = 240 passengers

Regarding Long Haul, the 210 and 240 passengers options are a no go.

Remaining options are 165 to 195 passengers.

In a 3 Class cabin configuration with 16 flats beds (55-60 pitch).

How many Premium and Eco seat can be fitted in the cabin?

Thanks for your feedbacks.

I think you have into take into consideration crew rests, serious galley capacity (2-3 service rounds) full lavatories and premium economy.

For an A321LR I would assume around 165 seats.

This is interesting to me because I was wondering about many of the same things. I am especially interested to see what full J-class seats airlines will use for longer missions.

Is there a seat map (even amateur) of an ACF cabin with the one overwing exit configuration?

keesje wrote:

I think you have into take into consideration crew rests, serious galley capacity (2-3 service rounds) full lavatories and premium economy.

For an A321LR I would assume around 165 seats.

This is what Jetblue have actually with the Mint and there's a loss in terms of room as they have the "Suite" product who is space consumming.

Check here => https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/JetBl ... anscon.php

I'm pretty sure it's possible to get more seats with the new ACF option but hard to find some datas on the net.

If someone can help?

AA operate First and Business class sleeper seats on A321.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/American_Airlines/American_Airlines_Airbus_A321_new.php

keesje wrote:

AA operate First and Business class sleeper seats on A321.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/American_Airlines/American_Airlines_Airbus_A321_new.php

M'y opinion is the AA cabin conf is "too generous" in terms of pitch.

If a Long Haul TATL activity on a single aisle it has to be 185-200 pax with 12-16 lieflat or recliner seats.

A380MSN004 wrote:

If a Long Haul TATL activity on a single aisle it has to be 185-200 pax with 12-16 lieflat or recliner seats.

This drawing of the A321 ACF is from the official Airbus documentation.

As you can see, the length of the cabin between front and the rear doors is 31.38 meters (36.37-5.59). Notice that the measurements are from the center of the doors. In order to get the correct numbers we need to subtract for that and also subtract for extra high pitch for the rows near the overwing exits. This leaves us with, approximately, 30 meters of cabin space for seats, assuming two overwing exits and therefore an exit limit at 195 seats. This also assumes that a space-flex cabin is suitable for medium to long haul, and that the aircraft is used for flights that don't require dedicated crew rest facilities onboard. 30 meters is 1180 inches.

Now we can play with the numbers. Here is an example:

Economy class:
180 seats (30 rows of seats at 6 abreast) @ 30 pitch = 900 inches.

1180 total cabin length that can be used for seats, minus 900 inches used for economy class, leaves us with 280 inches for flat beds business class seats.

Business class:
12 seats (3 rows of seats at 4 abreast) @ 80 pitch = 240 inches

= 192 seats

This leaves us with 40 inches of available cabin space, and the possibility of adding three more seats before we reach the exit limit. This available space can be used for half a row of economy class seats (three seats), and the other half of the row can be used for extra galley/trolleys.

reidar76 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

If a Long Haul TATL activity on a single aisle it has to be 185-200 pax with 12-16 lieflat or recliner seats.

This drawing of the A321 ACF is from the official Airbus documentation.

As you can see, the length of the cabin between front and the rear doors is 31.38 meters (36.37-5.59). Notice that the measurements are from the center of the doors. In order to get the correct numbers we need to subtract for that and also subtract for extra high pitch for the rows near the overwing exits. This leaves us with, approximately, 30 meters of cabin space for seats, assuming two overwing exits and therefore an exit limit at 195 seats. This also assumes that a space-flex cabin is suitable for medium to long haul, and that the aircraft is used for flights that don't require dedicated crew rest facilities onboard. 30 meters is 1180 inches.

Now we can play with the numbers. Here is an example:

Economy class:
180 seats (30 rows of seats at 6 abreast) @ 30 pitch = 900 inches.

1180 total cabin length that can be used for seats, minus 900 inches used for economy class, leaves us with 280 inches for flat beds business class seats.

Business class:
12 seats (3 rows of seats at 4 abreast) @ 80 pitch = 240 inches

= 192 seats

This leaves us with 40 inches of available cabin space, and the possibility of adding three more seats before we reach the exit limit. This available space can be used for half a row of economy class seats (three seats), and the other half of the row can be used for extra galley/trolleys.

Thanks for your feedback Reidar76, very interesting.

So yes definately the A321 can do proper Long Haul work with a 195 pax cabin.

Not a big fan of the spaceflex cabin regarding the lavatories but it make the job.

Many thanks.

Interesting, but at what lengths of flight would crew rest seats/beds be necessary? I know some crew that used to operate 13 hour return trips on the A320/321 in Europe without any such luxuries, just a 1 hour turnaround at the destination..just curious

I think Airbus 'brochure' for LR is 206 pax for 4knm.However I imagine that 200 pax in 2 (or3 Y+) would be preferable as saves one member of cabin crew.Their recent test flights hinted at a little additional range but I guess they will reveal all at Farnbrough.

parapente wrote:

I think Airbus 'brochure' for LR is 206 pax for 4knm.However I imagine that 200 pax in 2 (or3 Y+) would be preferable as saves one member of cabin crew.Their recent test flights hinted at a little additional range but I guess they will reveal all at Farnbrough.

Any chance you post the "brochure" here?

Many thanks

opticalilyushin wrote:

Interesting, but at what lengths of flight would crew rest seats/beds be necessary? I know some crew that used to operate 13 hour return trips on the A320/321 in Europe without any such luxuries, just a 1 hour turnaround at the destination..just curious

FDP (Flight Duty Period) for a two pilot crew for airlines operating in accordance with EASA (EU) regulations is listed in the table below. Note that agreements between the airlines and the pilot unions may have shorter FDP than the maximum allowed by the authorities.

Notice that the allowed FDP is reduced if the pilots are not acclimatized to the departing time zone or if the flight doesn't depart in the morning to mid-day. The FDP can also the extended by an additional hour if the pilots gets extended rest periods just prior and immediately after the flight.

The A321LR doesn't have the range to exceed the maximum allowed FDP for an acclimatized crew. (One flight is one sector. Turn/return flight is two sectors...)

BTW, what type of crew rest facilities exist on an A 321 LR?

A380MSN004 wrote:

BTW, what type of crew rest facilities exist on an A 321 LR?

None. But airlines can use business class seats for crew rest. They would need to, at least, put up some curtains around each seat used for crew rest to give the crew some shielding from the rest of the cabin.

I posted this in the A320neo Prod/Del thread and thought it will be relevant here as well.

...Airbus has updated the A321neo ACAP on their website to include the A321neo ACF cabin configuration.

http://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support- ... stics.html

^ You will find the A321neo document in the list.

Looks good in some ways but surprisingly impractical in other ways. For instance, aft of (pushed back) Door 2, there are 9 rows at 32 inches. In that space, airlines can only have 9 rows at 32 inches or 10 rows at 28-29 inches. The flexibility of 30 inch pitch seems to be lost. Same can be said about the space aft of the over-wing exits. It is good for 28-29 inch ULCCs, though.

The forward cabin appears more flexible for new J seats (as I believe was one of the benefits of this change) but the rest seems to have lost flexibility. Anyone else see it..?

So, I assume an airline like LH, for example, will have to go from 30 inch pitch now to 28-29 inches when and if the ACF A321neo joins their fleet. That is disappointing. It works for ULCCs.

MoKa777 wrote:

I posted this in the A320neo Prod/Del thread and thought it will be relevant here as well.

...Airbus has updated the A321neo ACAP on their website to include the A321neo ACF cabin configuration.

http://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support- ... stics.html

^ You will find the A321neo document in the list.

Looks good in some ways but surprisingly impractical in other ways. For instance, aft of (pushed back) Door 2, there are 9 rows at 32 inches. In that space, airlines can only have 9 rows at 32 inches or 10 rows at 28-29 inches. The flexibility of 30 inch pitch seems to be lost. Same can be said about the space aft of the over-wing exits. It is good for 28-29 inch ULCCs, though.

The forward cabin appears more flexible for new J seats (as I believe was one of the benefits of this change) but the rest seems to have lost flexibility. Anyone else see it..?

So, I assume an airline like LH, for example, will have to go from 30 inch pitch now to 28-29 inches when and if the ACF A321neo joins their fleet. That is disappointing. It works for ULCCs.

So calculation of Reidar76 sounds not possible with the ACF cabin?

MoKa777 wrote:

So, I assume an airline like LH, for example, will have to go from 30 inch pitch now to 28-29 inches when and if the ACF A321neo joins their fleet. That is disappointing. It works for ULCCs.

Lufthansa already has 28-29 inch pitch Y seating in their A320NEO, so I think they'll accept that on the A321ACF too. The new slimline seats from Geven and Acro give about two inches extra knee room, so 28-29 inch pitch is the new standard and here to stay - at least in Europe.

A380MSN004 wrote:

MoKa777 wrote:

I posted this in the A320neo Prod/Del thread and thought it will be relevant here as well.

...Airbus has updated the A321neo ACAP on their website to include the A321neo ACF cabin configuration.

http://www.airbus.com/aircraft/support- ... stics.html

^ You will find the A321neo document in the list.

Looks good in some ways but surprisingly impractical in other ways. For instance, aft of (pushed back) Door 2, there are 9 rows at 32 inches. In that space, airlines can only have 9 rows at 32 inches or 10 rows at 28-29 inches. The flexibility of 30 inch pitch seems to be lost. Same can be said about the space aft of the over-wing exits. It is good for 28-29 inch ULCCs, though.

The forward cabin appears more flexible for new J seats (as I believe was one of the benefits of this change) but the rest seems to have lost flexibility. Anyone else see it..?

So, I assume an airline like LH, for example, will have to go from 30 inch pitch now to 28-29 inches when and if the ACF A321neo joins their fleet. That is disappointing. It works for ULCCs.

So calculation of Reidar76 sounds not possible with the ACF cabin?

I believe with the new door configurations on the ACF it is not applicable.

CRJ900 wrote:

MoKa777 wrote:

So, I assume an airline like LH, for example, will have to go from 30 inch pitch now to 28-29 inches when and if the ACF A321neo joins their fleet. That is disappointing. It works for ULCCs.

Lufthansa already has 28-29 inch pitch Y seating in their A320NEO, so I think they'll accept that on the A321ACF too. The new slimline seats from Geven and Acro give about two inches extra knee room, so 28-29 inch pitch is the new standard and here to stay - at least in Europe.

I did not know they already moved to that pitch. Good to know.

CRJ900 wrote:

MoKa777 wrote:

So, I assume an airline like LH, for example, will have to go from 30 inch pitch now to 28-29 inches when and if the ACF A321neo joins their fleet. That is disappointing. It works for ULCCs.

Lufthansa already has 28-29 inch pitch Y seating in their A320NEO, so I think they'll accept that on the A321ACF too. The new slimline seats from Geven and Acro give about two inches extra knee room, so 28-29 inch pitch is the new standard and here to stay - at least in Europe.

But what's gonna be the feedback of the customers on a Long Haul flight with the slimline. I've tried them once, it's ok for 2-3 hours. On 7 - 9 hours i'm not sure.

[threeid][/threeid]

MoKa777 wrote:

This is interesting to me because I was wondering about many of the same things. I am especially interested to see what full J-class seats airlines will use for longer missions.

Is there a seat map (even amateur) of an ACF cabin with the one overwing exit configuration?

Full J Class such as "la compagnie" will have 80 J seats (20 rows)

A380MSN004 wrote:

So calculation of Reidar76 sounds not possible with the ACF cabin?

MoKa777 is considering seating above 195 seats, requiring a door pair between the overwing exits and the rear doors. This pair of doors can be deactivated when staying below 195 seats, as in the calculations I did further up this tread.

I guess space flex in the rear galley would leave to little room for catering 2 meals / services, for more than 160 people. Specially if there is business class. Looking at 757, many TATL have some form of crew rest, apparently airlines agreed that with their crews. Slimline seats / low pitch on long flights could lead to passenger complaints, DVT incidents airlines probably want to stay away from. I assume 195 seats single class would be max for 6-8 hr flights on a A321. Recently a HCCR High comfort crew rest seats were selected by Airbus. I think there was a competition between Stelia and Ipeco, BEA or Goodrich might also have been competing.

Delta 757 cabin crew rest seats. for longer flights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKDsrwiAGDE&app=desktop

I believe the confusion about seat pitch comes from the fact that (as I understand it) they measure the distance from the back of the upright part of the seat.Perhaps way back when no one thought that seat backs would vary so much in thickness.Today slimline seats are about 1" thick whereas they used to be 3" thick.Thus a 28"- 29" equals (in this measurement only) a 30"-31" traditional pitch.
Mind you there is (I believe) some stretching of the truth.One notes that the back of many of the latest slimline seats are 'sculptured' so that the outer leg/knee area is deeper than the central part thus ( if the measurement it taken from the side part) 'finding' Another half to one inch.
As above the norm for short/med haul with these slimline seats will be in the 29" pitch area going forwards.But is the 'sort of' equivalent to the old 31".

reidar76 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

BTW, what type of crew rest facilities exist on an A 321 LR?

None. But airlines can use business class seats for crew rest. They would need to, at least, put up some curtains around each seat used for crew rest to give the crew some shielding from the rest of the cabin.

Indeed. Same as on the 330 with no crew rest. A biz seat doesn't give as much "rest credit" as a bunk but you're not flying 14 hours either.

Starlionblue wrote:

reidar76 wrote:

A380MSN004 wrote:

BTW, what type of crew rest facilities exist on an A 321 LR?

None. But airlines can use business class seats for crew rest. They would need to, at least, put up some curtains around each seat used for crew rest to give the crew some shielding from the rest of the cabin.

Indeed. Same as on the 330 with no crew rest. A biz seat doesn't give as much "rest credit" as a bunk but you're not flying 14 hours either.

Many airlines use curtains to create undisturbed rest.





It eats expensive revenue Business class capacity though. If NB medium flights gets bigger, the incentive to come with something smarter grows.

If the seat is herringbone there is some level of privacy already. The curtains do look like a fine addition, but with a sleep mask and earplugs I'm ok. Curtains won't save you from cabin crew accidentally ramming your seat with the drinks cart.

Nothing beats the "treehouse".

The cabin crew use curtains around a couple of rows of economy seats to get privacy.