acjbbj
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:06 pm

(Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:48 am

If the An-225 were to get new engines that are more efficient than the current D-18T's, which one of today's engines would be suitable?

Could it use four larger engines instead of the six? I'm imagining four Trent 895/Trent XWB-97, GE90-94B/upsized GEnx, or PW4090/4098 or something based on the PW1000G series.

Six Trent 560's could work, but I feel like I've posted too much about the A340 in too short of a time period.

Ideally, it would use two engines, but getting a 690-750 kN engine working? I doubt. Too big, too wide, too heavy, and too much drag.

Any thoughts?

I know it's gonna need a major design change, and it's gonna involve new wings and new engine control systems, etc. It's gonna be expensive. I would just like to see what your thoughts are, so please don't say "it's not possible", "it's too expensive", "what are you thinking", etc. I would just like to know what engines you think could be used on an An-225 with four engines.
Favourite plane: "Lockheed-Martin L-1011-855-1 TriStar NextGen" :mrgreen: (3-Engine cargo jet approximately the size of a 777-9, but with more range and payload than the standard 772F. Powered by three 450-kN upscaled GP7000)
 
hitower3
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:55 am

Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:17 am

Technically, there are many points to consider - including the vastly different interface architecture between D18T's and any western FADEC powerplant. Next is the issue around wing load balancing. Next is the whole certification stuff around performance, engine out procedures etc. And the list of potential issues is likely much longer.
Economically, things are very clear: if you need the An225, you will be ready to pay the price for it. The variable cost would be somewhat (2000USD? 3000USD?) lower by using modern engines, but this is more than offset by the whole development and certification cost (several 100 million USD?) that needs to be absorbed by one or two aircraft flying very low hours.

In short: makes no sense.

best regards,
Hendric
 
stratclub
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:45 am

The real deal breaker is the age of the airframe. 30 years? Aging Aircraft Maintenance will throw any thoughts of economical operation out the window. And then a 1 of ? Even if all the outcomes were good, a 1 of would make zero economic sense especially with the age of the airframe.

New wings? Why? New Pylons with needed structural modification to the wings would work. It's not like we are asking the wings to do anything it didn't do before.
 
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Btblue
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Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:12 am

I think the cheapest option would be to go with the six engines. With six you are still left with 5 if one goes down. With four, you are left with three and considerably less power by ratio and a high chunk of power lost if one goes down.

I don't see a current modern engine on the market that could service this aircraft - once the MOM comes to fruition, then we could see something that would work. Possibly a scaled PW1100G up UltraFan or something along those lines but the prosepct as you know it zero.
 
WIederling
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Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:49 am

acjbbj wrote:
If the An-225 were to get new engines that are more efficient than the current D-18T's, which one of today's engines would be suitable?


The D-18T has
sealevel tsfc of .36 ( lb/lbf/h )
in cruise tsfc is .57 ( lb/lbf/h )

compare to Trent 7000 with
cruise tsfc of 0.506 lb/lbf/h

That is just 12% more fuel for a frame that does not show
the utilization profile to make fuel a significant expenditure.
It is not unduly short legged either.

If you want to do something about tsfc you'd probably be better
served with an engine PIP to the D-18T.
Murphy is an optimist
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:17 pm

Be willing to bet if you need the services of the AN-225, cost isn't really a factor.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
VSMUT
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Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:02 pm

Btblue wrote:
I think the cheapest option would be to go with the six engines. With six you are still left with 5 if one goes down. With four, you are left with three and considerably less power by ratio and a high chunk of power lost if one goes down.


I would agree with this. The engine out requirements are just as valid on the An-225 as they are on the A340 and 777. Having fewer engines means that you have to limit your potential payload more. It's the exact same reason why 777s can struggle on hot and high airports, while the "underpowered" A340 can handle the same airports with few issues.

You would also have to solve the wing bending issue once you remove several tons of engine from the wings.
 
acjbbj
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:39 pm

So, aside from Trent 560's maybe (six) CF6's or Trent 700/7000?
Favourite plane: "Lockheed-Martin L-1011-855-1 TriStar NextGen" :mrgreen: (3-Engine cargo jet approximately the size of a 777-9, but with more range and payload than the standard 772F. Powered by three 450-kN upscaled GP7000)
 
WIederling
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:47 pm

acjbbj wrote:
So, aside from Trent 560's maybe (six) CF6's or Trent 700/7000?


Why change to an engine that has similar tsfc?
Murphy is an optimist
 
gtae07
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:44 am

You'd never make back the cost of the conversion. Why bother?
 
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LA704
Posts: 70
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Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:57 pm

A GENx-2B would be the closest thing among the newer engines IMHO.
One could dream about gearing up a LEAP (different companies, I know) to get the thrust and spectacular TSFC...
Thirdly the russian military could decide to order some new, updated 225s with 6 upsized PD-14 engines.
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Phosphorus
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Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:30 am

LA704 wrote:
A GENx-2B would be the closest thing among the newer engines IMHO.
One could dream about gearing up a LEAP (different companies, I know) to get the thrust and spectacular TSFC...
Thirdly the russian military could decide to order some new, updated 225s with 6 upsized PD-14 engines.


Following Russia's invasion against Ukraine in 2014, Antonov will refuse their orders for An-225, with or without imagined derivatives of the (incredibly overhyped) PD-14 program.

(On the engines, just to make things clear, there seems to be a great much noise in the engine building circles in Russia, about PD-14. There seem to be three pro-PD-14 factions: 1) sings that PD-14 is the next best thing since the sliced bread, and Russia should finance its development ASAP, with unlimited budget; 2) agrees with (1) but adds that all other available resources have to be thrown into building a smaller, de-rated derivative, with approximately 7 ton thrust (cough... SSJ ... cough); 3) agrees with (1) but insists on urgency of building an up-rated larger derivative, to power everything else in sight.

Of course, there is a fourth faction, insisting that the whole PD-14 story is a diversion, instigated by Russia's enemies, whose purpose is to kill the glorious PS-90 family.)
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
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neutrino
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Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:17 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Following Russia's invasion against Ukraine in 2014, Antonov will refuse their orders for An-225, with or without imagined derivatives of the (incredibly overhyped) PD-14 program.

If there's any resumption of An-225 production, its going to be made in China. Dependent on the details and fruition of the plans between Antonov and the Middle Kingdom of course.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1628
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: (Theoretical) re-engine of An-225

Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:51 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
LA704 wrote:
A GENx-2B would be the closest thing among the newer engines IMHO.
One could dream about gearing up a LEAP (different companies, I know) to get the thrust and spectacular TSFC...
Thirdly the russian military could decide to order some new, updated 225s with 6 upsized PD-14 engines.


Following Russia's invasion against Ukraine in 2014, Antonov will refuse their orders for An-225, with or without imagined derivatives of the (incredibly overhyped) PD-14 program.


If the Russians really had som massive need for a unique one-off airlifter, they would just build it at the Aviastar facility in Ulyanovsk, where half the An-124s were built. They have all the blueprints and know-how anyway.

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