IFlyVeryLittle
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Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:43 pm

Does the operation of a passenger flight differ greatly from passenger operations? I specifically wonder if passengers get treated to smoother rides, easier touchdowns, shallower climbs, descents, bank angles etc. or is there simply one way to flight a jetliner (the right way) and it matters not who or what is aboard. Thanks.
 
mmo
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:26 pm

Answered your own question.
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tb727
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:38 pm

lol I assume you mean between pax and cargo. I always tried to be smooth and professional when I was flying cargo. I don't know why everyone thinks because you fly freight, you just fly ham handed and jerk the thing around the sky. Like you said, the right way is the only way regardless of who or what is in the back.
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Andre3K
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:02 pm

If anything you might actually fly smoother with a Cargo plane as there might be some very hazardous crap back there that you don't want rupturing or shaking up to bad.
 
stratclub
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:03 am

Flying the aircraft "the right way" isn't really an issue. If an aircraft isn't flown per the limitations of the aircraft's flight manual, the pilot can face serious disciplinary action from the company and the F.A.A. There is whole lot more maneuverability in the aircrafts flight envelope than an air crew ever uses. So really, no PAX? of course an aircrew will fly a more aggressive flight profile if there is an advantage to do that. PAX on board? The flight crew is going fly the aircraft more conservatively to maintain the people in back's comfort level. Scaring your passengers with flight maneuvers they don't understand is bad for business.

There are some very specific DOT regulations about shipping hazardous material that make the possibility of something being "shaken around" leaking, combining with other materials that are reactive and causing an explosion extremely remote. Also,some materials under no circumstance can be shipped by air.
 
mmo
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:03 pm

stratclub wrote:
. So really, no PAX? of course an aircrew will fly a more aggressive flight profile if there is an advantage to do that. PAX on board? The flight crew is going fly the aircraft more conservatively to maintain the people in back's comfort level. Scaring your passengers with flight maneuvers they don't understand is bad for business.


I don't know what your background is but I think it's a safe bet you're not a pilot. First of all, you are so far from right it's embarrassing!!! I have worked for 3 carriers which had both pax and freight aircraft. I can tell you they are flown exactly the same. When you get trained on your initial qual or recurrent training there is not one simulator syllabus for freighters and another for pax aircraft. You will get differences which cover the systems differences but the flying is exactly the same. There is no such thing as an "aggressive" flight profile for a freighter and a sedate one for pax. In addition, you fail to realize if you are flying a freighter you need to fit in with the other traffic. Just because you are in a freighter ATC does't clear airspace for you to execute your "aggressive flight profile", you need to fit in like every other aircraft.

When I fly, I fly for my comfort, not the people behind the cockpit door. That has served me well for over 35 years!!

Please don't post responses on something which you don't have a clue!!
'
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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pwm2txlhopper
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:42 pm

I was under the impression that bank angles on passenger flights are generally executed while not exceeding a certain point? Something like 35 degrees? Whenever possible.

Also, I thought crews of passengers flights tried to limit things such as super fast descents when otherwise able, for passenger comfort?

I don't think cargo crews fly like fighter pilots, but I think these types of things might be what people were referring to when talking about aggressive cargo pilots.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:47 pm

I've flown cargo and passenger on the same type of aircraft, varying from one day to the next. In the operation I was in, the aircraft were flown more or less the same way, although there were minor differences:

During the taxi out, we check the brakes by taping the pedals. This was done much more softly on passenger flights because the flight attendants would be standing up in the aisle doing the safety demo.
During climb out with pax, once passing FL100 we would typically change the climb mode from IAS to basic pitch, and then lower the nose slightly. This would prevent the aircraft front gyrating up and down in an attempt to catch the speed, and would make it easier for the flight attendants to push the carts up the aisle.
If the taxi was short, we would also have to ensure that the safety demo was done and the cabin ready for takeoff, while in cargo we would just taxi out and depart as quickly as possible. There is also the obvious communication with the cabin.

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
I was under the impression that bank angles on passenger flights are generally executed while not exceeding a certain point? Something like 35 degrees? Whenever possible.


Not on the ATR. It is related to the stall speed, and I think that's the case on most aircraft. High bank is needed in order to follow air routes, departures and arrivals safely anyway.
 
mmo
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:02 pm

pwm2txlhopper wrote:
I was under the impression that bank angles on passenger flights are generally executed while not exceeding a certain point? Something like 35 degrees? Whenever possible.

Also, I thought crews of passengers flights tried to limit things such as super fast descents when otherwise able, for passenger comfort?

I don't think cargo crews fly like fighter pilots, but I think these types of things might be what people were referring to when talking about aggressive cargo pilots.


Ok, let me try this one more time. We have a 748I and a 748F depart right behind each other. Assuming they are at the same TOGW and can fly the exact same routing with the exact same winds, their flight paths will be EXACTLY the same. Once the autopilot is on, it will fly the aircraft. The FMC on the Pax version is exactly the same on the Freighter. The turn radius for all turns will be EXACTLY the same. ATC will give turns based on all the flights turning at 30 degrees of bank.

It does not make any difference at all if you have passengers or cargo onboard.

VSMUT wrote:
Not on the ATR. It is related to the stall speed, and I think that's the case on most aircraft. High bank is needed in order to follow air routes, departures and arrivals safely anyway.


I wouldn't call 30 degrees a high bank angle turn. On a published departure or arrival you will never see more than 30 degrees. So, I am not sure exactly whay you are referring to when you talk about high bank angles.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:34 pm

mmo wrote:
I wouldn't call 30 degrees a high bank angle turn. On a published departure or arrival you will never see more than 30 degrees. So, I am not sure exactly whay you are referring to when you talk about high bank angles.


Low-bank vs high-bank mode on the ATR ADU (autopilot/FD control panel). On an ATR you are restricted to low bank (max 15 degrees of bank) when flying below white bug+10/VmLBO+10.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
mmo wrote:
I wouldn't call 30 degrees a high bank angle turn. On a published departure or arrival you will never see more than 30 degrees. So, I am not sure exactly whay you are referring to when you talk about high bank angles.


Low-bank vs high-bank mode on the ATR ADU (autopilot/FD control panel). On an ATR you are restricted to low bank (max 15 degrees of bank) when flying below white bug+10/VmLBO+10.


Don´t mix turboprops and real airplanes :lol: Like mmo, I fly both pax and freight versions in the fleet. No difference in operation apart from simpler operation on the freighter due to no pax or cc. More time pressure though in the freight operation, contrary to what some people think.
 
KAUSpilot
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:02 pm

I fly both pax and cargo widebodies of the same type and there is no difference in how they're flown, except that I really don't care about less than moderate turbulence in a freighter. It is in most pilots' nature to fly as smooth as possible and attempt to get the best landing regardless.
 
stratclub
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:46 am

mmo wrote:
stratclub wrote:
. So really, no PAX? of course an aircrew will fly a more aggressive flight profile if there is an advantage to do that. PAX on board? The flight crew is going fly the aircraft more conservatively to maintain the people in back's comfort level. Scaring your passengers with flight maneuvers they don't understand is bad for business.


I don't know what your background is but I think it's a safe bet you're not a pilot. First of all, you are so far from right it's embarrassing!!! I have worked for 3 carriers which had both pax and freight aircraft. I can tell you they are flown exactly the same. When you get trained on your initial qual or recurrent training there is not one simulator syllabus for freighters and another for pax aircraft. You will get differences which cover the systems differences but the flying is exactly the same. There is no such thing as an "aggressive" flight profile for a freighter and a sedate one for pax. In addition, you fail to realize if you are flying a freighter you need to fit in with the other traffic. Just because you are in a freighter ATC does't clear airspace for you to execute your "aggressive flight profile", you need to fit in like every other aircraft.

When I fly, I fly for my comfort, not the people behind the cockpit door. That has served me well for over 35 years!!

Please don't post responses on something which you don't have a clue!!
'

Thanks for checking in. I defer to your experience and you are correct, I'm not a pilot so all of what I have posted is tempered around my experience working as a Flight Test AMT and sometimes flying the observers seat on Ferry Flights to and from test locations.

Flight Test Validation testing certainly is not quite the same world as what you guys experience flying revenue flights every day. But still, I do have a clue on the subject, just not at the same level as yourself, so sure your input is much appreciated and helps make a good conversation a great one.

On my last remote trip we came back from testing at KOA and were coming into BFI. We tucked into the final leg of the pattern fairly close to the airport and the pilot executed 2 extreme bank angle turns to line up on final.
After the completion of the 2nd turn, it seemed like we were already at the threshold and this was with a B-787.
I'm pretty sure we saved at least 10 minutes of flight time because we got in ahead of several other incoming aircraft many of which were GA aircraft.

My assumption is that a cargo might use those maneuvers if it saved them flight time and a passenger aircraft would not be inclined to because of the PAX.

Almost forgot. Many years ago I did witness a 727-100 freighter do an Air Force salute about 100 feet or so off the deck on departure from our Mod center. For several seconds it seemed like the aircraft was in the middle of a death role into the ground until he rolled back and dipped the other wing.
And this was about 90 degrees both ways from wings level. Just something else a pilot would not do with PAX on board.
 
mmo
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:21 am

I spent about 10 years doing flight test with a certain airline. If we were to do something like that, we would be shown the door very quickly. I am all for saving time or expediting the approach, but one go around kills all the time you saved!

I guess I don't feel the need to impress someone in the cockpit or on the ground. Had enough of that in the military and the aircraft there have plenty of excess thrust available, plus an ejection seat! An airliner doesn't have that. Not worth the risk in my opinion.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
stratclub
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:12 am

Of coarse you work where the expectations dictate you maintain a high level of professionalism and situational awareness. That's really a good thing. Believe it or not our flight crews aren't much different. If they push the envelope during testing, it's always done in a conservative, well thought out and in an incremental manner. The maneuverer I described was not a part of any testing. This was on a Saturday during the summer at one of the busiest GA airports in the country and I think ATC tucked us into the pattern where they did so we could avoid the Mosquito Fleet of Cessna's and Piper's that were out flying that day.

The OP's question? Would you agree that the flight rules are the same for cargo and passenger aircraft, except a cargo pilot would be less likely to be dinged from deviating from the Flight Manual and company procedure?
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:02 pm

your last sentence brings a big no from me. Flight rules the same yes; less likely to be dinged NO. where I was, a deviation from the flt. manual or co. procedure would be a down on a line or sim check. No one would smile and say "Y'all be careful now". lol
 
mmo
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:52 pm

stratclub wrote:

The OP's question? Would you agree that the flight rules are the same for cargo and passenger aircraft, except a cargo pilot would be less likely to be dinged from deviating from the Flight Manual and company procedure?


Absolutely wrong!! Even after all the posts in this thread, why would you ask something such as that? If you deviate and don't inform the company and have a very good reason, you risk your job. Freighter, passenger or ferry ops it makes no difference at all. You do something such as that and is shows extremely poor judgement and raises the issue of your continued employment.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
stratclub
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:34 pm

mmo wrote:
stratclub wrote:

The OP's question? Would you agree that the flight rules are the same for cargo and passenger aircraft, except a cargo pilot would be less likely to be dinged from deviating from the Flight Manual and company procedure?


Absolutely wrong!! Even after all the posts in this thread, why would you ask something such as that? If you deviate and don't inform the company and have a very good reason, you risk your job. Freighter, passenger or ferry ops it makes no difference at all. You do something such as that and is shows extremely poor judgement and raises the issue of your continued employment.

Just want to make sure my understanding is correct. Thank you.
 
Andre3K
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:11 pm

Is it standard procedure to do a low altitude wing rock on departure for an aircraft delivery? No. Has it happened in the past? Yes. Will anything anyone says here stop it from happening in the future? No.

Of course you want to fly by the numbers and within the operating envelope described in the manual/company procedures. But that doesn't mean the plane can't fly outside of the numbers. There are certain numbers that are softer(like maximum pitch) and some that are solid(like stall speed). If that weren't the case, then you wouldn't see things like the 787's and A350's doing 35+ degree climbs for airshows, or rolling to almost 90 degrees of bank.

Why be so ate up about these questions? Sometimes people act like they are the only/best pilot's on earth.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:47 pm

I'm not sure what your point is here. You're mixing a line pilot's responsibility to operate the jet according to the FARs, the flight manual and the co. operating policies with a Boeing flight test crew. These are 2 separate entities. Look up what the FAA considers aerobatic when it comes to pitch and bank and you'll see in ain't "soft". At the airline I was at we had a flight test dept. and I'm sure they did things that a regular line guy would be busted for doing. Don't confuse the two. I never saw any pilot take liberties with "soft" pitch or bank angles nor deviate from SOP.
 
Andre3K
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:01 am

CosmicCruiser wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is here. You're mixing a line pilot's responsibility to operate the jet according to the FARs, the flight manual and the co. operating policies with a Boeing flight test crew. These are 2 separate entities. Look up what the FAA considers aerobatic when it comes to pitch and bank and you'll see in ain't "soft". At the airline I was at we had a flight test dept. and I'm sure they did things that a regular line guy would be busted for doing. Don't confuse the two. I never saw any pilot take liberties with "soft" pitch or bank angles nor deviate from SOP.


Read a few posts up about the AMT who flies with flight test crews.
 
stratclub
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Re: Cargo vs. Passenger: Different ways to fly

Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:27 am

Andre3K wrote:
CosmicCruiser wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is here. You're mixing a line pilot's responsibility to operate the jet according to the FARs, the flight manual and the co. operating policies with a Boeing flight test crew. These are 2 separate entities. Look up what the FAA considers aerobatic when it comes to pitch and bank and you'll see in ain't "soft". At the airline I was at we had a flight test dept. and I'm sure they did things that a regular line guy would be busted for doing. Don't confuse the two. I never saw any pilot take liberties with "soft" pitch or bank angles nor deviate from SOP.


Read a few posts up about the AMT who flies with flight test crews.

Please, I'm not trying to minimize anything that contributes to operations that are outside of an aircrafts flight envelope. In testing, we set the customers flight envelope to the customers expected operating procedures and the flight manual is written based on the customers expected flight profiles and our known and proven flight capability of the aircraft.

Is there more performance the aircraft is capable of above what is called out in the customers flight manual? Well ya Skippy there is. Is the additional capability a concern to the customer? No, not really because their flight manual and training specifies how they must operate the aircraft. Any emergencies will however incorporate anything that is in the aircraft true and proven performance envelope to reach a favorable outcome of the emergency.

Member MMO as a pilot understands this stuff pretty well me thinks...................

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