WPvsMW
Topic Author
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Better way to load freighters

Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:48 pm

Is this
https://www.flickr.com/photos/75877584@N05/39513440615/
the system that your operator opted not to use? Can you share what the issues were?

In "next gen" cargo loading systems, I think we'll see either (i) motorized dollies to move ULDs and pallets between the a/c cargo door and the "sort center network" and/or (ii) telescopic bridges from the sort center network to the a/c cargo door. Cargo restraint engagement between ULD/pallet would be automated. ULDs and pallets would have integral mass sensors and generate actual W/B. The loading crew become two persons, who double-check pre- and post-loading plan, restraint engagement, W/B, and each other.

Nose-loading makes next-gen cargo ops so much simpler. I think we'll see twin-engine VLA nose-loader frames.
 
airbusflyboy
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Better way to load freighters

Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:14 am

Not cost effective nor is it expedient to offer such type of arrangement in lowering the aircraft height , when you have two hundred to three hundred aircraft that need to be loaded there simply is not enough real estate to modify a loading procedure .
My airline is pressed for ramp space of which is very tight and little more to gain at our airport in the Mid South.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Better way to load freighters

Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:29 am

Also many places in the world you can’t just “dig a hole” without electric pumps to pump out the ground water .. Just imagine an freighter destroyed by water filling up “the hole”
 
WPvsMW
Topic Author
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Better way to load freighters

Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:23 am

Yes, valid points... the concept really only works for new-built facilities, aerotropoles, not to retrofit MEM and SDF. Rainfall accumulation can be managed. As for "pit vs. cargo jetway", it's ROI. Is it more profitable to lower the cargo door lip or raise the ULD/pallet network?

I think spoke to hub and v.v. will retain traditional deck loader/tug&dolly technology for decades to come. Hub to hub, in contrast, is ripe for better productivity. The critical path is on the ramp: loading and unloading.
viewtopic.php?t=336357

IMO, "full load turns" could go from an average 120+ minutes to 30 minutes with hydrant refueling and a "cargo jetway". The additional block hours would pay back the infrastructure investment.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Better way to load freighters

Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:56 am

WPvsMW wrote:
IMO, "full load turns" could go from an average 120+ minutes to 30 minutes with hydrant refueling and a "cargo jetway". The additional block hours would pay back the infrastructure investment.


Except that rarely happens, and operators don't need it. Those full load turns are mostly done when there is plenty of time, such as when all the aircraft arrive at the hub. In this case, they can't go until all the aircraft have deposited all the cargo and it has all been sorted for the next flights.

120 minutes is also quite a stretch. I was stuck in an airport hotel close to a cargo ramp one day, and I watched one 777 and 747 after another roll in, completely offload and reload in 40 minutes before they were off again. That's how long it takes. At least one other poster above noted that it is done in about 40 minutes, and another pointed out that refueling will take much longer than 30 minutes too. And you still haven't explained how you will handle underfloor cargo, aircraft maintenance or just getting the crew too and from the aircraft.

Finally you have the financing. The only places where operators own the ramp and can make modifications at their own whim are at major hubs. As mentioned above, they tend to spend a lot of time at those hubs, so fast turnaround times are not necessary for the majority of flights there. Fast turnarounds are done at out airports that receive maybe 2 or 3 cargo planes that are handled by a handling company. Why would the airport want to invest in an expensive apron tailored only for 2 or 3 guest aircraft per day? What incentive does the airport have to reduce the turnaround time from 40 minutes to 30?
 
COSPN
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Better way to load freighters

Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:32 pm

I said ground water... not rain water... I’m not sure where you are from but go out and dig a 25 foot hole and see what happens.. the ground water will come in .. needs pumps to pump the water out .. are you a civil engineer?? Mabe worth finding one buy them a beer and he or she will explain many of the issues and difficulties..
 
WPvsMW
Topic Author
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Better way to load freighters

Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:26 pm

@VSMUT. What you saw were not full unload/loads.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=214019&p=2087835&hilit=how+long+to+load+unload+freighter#p2087835
As for refueling... hydrant refueling to an a/c with dual fuel ports is done at 1,000 gpm. A 777F fuel capacity is 47,890 gal.
To reiterate, this is a greenfield, aerotropolis concept, not a retrofit of MEM or SDF.

Re: ground water. The ATL inter-concourse train system was built through an underground river. Ground water management is a routine engineering problem in tunnel construction and even easier in surface construction.... as in nearly every parking structure under a skyscraper.
https://saportareport.com/group-seeking ... r-airport/
 
COSPN
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Better way to load freighters

Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:23 am

Sure at what cost per square foot ?
 
WPvsMW
Topic Author
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Better way to load freighters

Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:36 am

The cost per sf is numerator, the denominator being benefit per sf. ;) I don't know the numbers, just that time is money, which is the entire premise for express air freight.
 
fdxtulmech
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:51 am

Re: Better way to load freighters

Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:37 am

You would also need to make changes to other infrastructure that supports the flight. For example, currently when I go out to my plane to change a NAV light or other routine maintenance I use a lift truck to get to what I need, under your system I would need some sort of bridge system to perform maintenance. Otherwise, the loading effort would have to wait on me to finish my job and there would be no savings of time. Everyone works together and at the same time. If I had to change a tire I need to get jacks, tires etc.. down into the "pit". Most time I can do my job within the turn time, but if I had to finish before they started loading there would be more delays.
Also, not sure what you calling "hydrant" fueling. The aircraft can only take about 50-55 PSI, it doesn't matter how many hoses you connect, it doesn't increase the speed of refueling by much at all. The normal pressure refueling operation isn't limited by how many gallons you can pump, but by how much pressure the aircraft systems can handle. Some aircraft can have both wings fueled by 2 different trucks at the same time which speeds things up, but adding multiple hoses to one port doesn't do much of anything.
How would your bridge system accommodate the difference in wide body and narrow body aircraft? The bridge would need to approach the aircraft, but not be supported by the aircraft. These things move several feet up and down while loading and it would need to be self supporting and adjustable as the airplane moves. Also it would need to adjust forward and rearward for the different locations of cargo doors and parking is only accurate withing about a 4-6 foot area. A lot of times the nose wheel can be on the stop line but the fuselage is not centered in the parking spot due to either the pilot starting his turn to soon or overshooting. This puts the airplane at an angle that the bridge would have to adjust for as well. Some days the plane is 2 foot over the stop line and tail is 10 foot off of center. Driving up to it in a loader it is easy to correct, but a fixed bridge would need to move around quite a bit to adjust. Not to mention the pit would need to be large enough to compensate for bad parking jobs.
Some a few thoughts and question.
 
WPvsMW
Topic Author
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Better way to load freighters

Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:47 am

fdxtulmech, you've got the concept... it's a complete rethinking of how to unload and load a freighter to save time.

Re: fueling. "The 6-inch diameter lateral pipe provides a flow rate between 600 and 1,000 gpm at 7 fps (feet per second) to 10 fps velocity. Velocity is important because it affects the buildup of static electricity. It generally takes between 300 and 400 gpm to fuel one narrow body aircraft or between 500 and 600 gpm to fuel a wide body/jumbo aircraft. When an aircraft has a dual fuel point, a fill rate of 1,000 gpm is likely. The hydrant fuel pit is an underground fiberglass pit in which the lateral fuel pipe connects into a hydrant valve."
https://www.petrolplaza.com/knowledge/1796

Re: maintenance. All exisiting ramp equipment could work in the pit. A cherrypicker, lift, or other mtn vehicle would ride on the elevator or descend via a ramp before the a/c arrives. Would have a separate, smaller ramp for vehicles in case a mtn vehicle is needed with the a/c in the pit.

Re: variation in a/c location. The "cargo bridge" would be just as maneuverable as a pax jetway, and mate with the cargo door lip.

Here's where it gets really interesting.... interfacing the bat mat or roller mat drive system in the cargo hold with the sort center system. Position sensors can locate ULD or pallet edges to the millimeter. If the sort center drive interfaces with the cargo hold drive, "the loadmaster becomes a spectator" after connecting a cable to interface the systems (could also be a wireless interface... but there's so much RF already, I like cables for the same reason that ramp to flight deck intercom is still a cable).
 
JHwk
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:11 am

Re: Better way to load freighters

Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:18 am

Why not just have a step-ramp conveyor on the loader to raise and lower containers continuously?
 
WPvsMW
Topic Author
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Better way to load freighters

Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:11 am

Or an escalator with a step depth of a ULD or pallet? In either case, I think the inclined angle would have to be so shallow that it would consume too much area.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: stratosphere, THS214 and 12 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos