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Faro
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"Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:21 am

The above quote from page 43 of the following incident report:

http://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/airbus-a340-finnair-attempted-take-off-on-taxiway.pdf

This it was a company policy; one recommendation stemming from the incident was for the company involved to review this policy. It may now have been changed.

Why should such a policy exist in the first place? I'm sure at the time there must have been good --or seemingly good-- reasons...

Is such a taxi-training policy still in force with other airlines today?


Faro
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zeke
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:26 am

It would be company policy, Airbus SOP is for the PF to taxi.

On a lot of earlier piston, turboprop, and jet airliners the tiller for ground steering was only on the LH side. It was optional to have a tiller installed on the RH side on Boeing’s.

All FBW Airbus aircraft have tillers on both sides.
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T1a
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:04 pm

I've worked for two large European legacies, on both airlines it is company SOP for the left pilot to always taxi. On some planes it is logical (tiller only on the left) on others it's policy only. I don't know if it was done to keep it simple across the fleets or if there is more to it.

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stratclub
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:44 am

I think more than anything it's whatever is written into a carriers operations manual. The operations manual is sometimes written by people that are not to sharp and the the FAA approves it and then you are stuck unless someone revises the operations manual. There is no valid reason an aircraft can't be taxied from the right seat if a tiller is available.

Our tool control program was written poorly and approved by the FAA so we have to follow it even though the plan is a real pain to work with by people that actually work on airplanes. I guess it's not PC to let someone know that they are an imbecile, because even to get a tool added or removed to the program inventory takes months of meeting to even get it considered.
 
BravoOne
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:46 pm

New F/O's must demonstrate (for a FAA type rating) the ability to taxi an aircraft that only has the tiller on the left side. This is very common on a lot of US carriers, and so common on European operators. Most of the newer airliners like the Airbus and 777/787 have the tillers on both sides thus giving the F/O an opportunity to develop taxi skills assuming it has been an approved practice by the operator and the Capt is comfortable with this practice. Ground accidents while usually not deadly, are more often than not the fault of the crew and most hard on one's ego:)
 
m007j
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:23 pm

I probably sound like an idiot, but how does a new FO get taxi experience on an airplane with a tiller only on the left? I would assume switching seats is a no-go, and they would have to get used to doing everything else from the right side except for this one thing. And how much training do you get when you upgrade, assuming you are an FO who has never had a captain trust you with tiller?
 
NWADC9
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:52 pm

m007j wrote:
I probably sound like an idiot, but how does a new FO get taxi experience on an airplane with a tiller only on the left? I would assume switching seats is a no-go, and they would have to get used to doing everything else from the right side except for this one thing. And how much training do you get when you upgrade, assuming you are an FO who has never had a captain trust you with tiller?

It's done during sim training, where the new FO would sit in the left seat and use the tiller.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:08 pm

How hard is it to taxi, really? Even the C-5, tiller on left side only, wasn’t that big a challenge. I taught dozens to taxi.

GF
 
T1a
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:12 pm

I've taxied a Dash-8-Q400 from the right, no tiller. You use differential braking and differential power. It's a bit of a pain and not so comfortable for the pax, but definitly builds skill.

Greets,
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CosmicCruiser
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:46 pm

NWADC9 wrote:
m007j wrote:
I probably sound like an idiot, but how does a new FO get taxi experience on an airplane with a tiller only on the left? I would assume switching seats is a no-go, and they would have to get used to doing everything else from the right side except for this one thing. And how much training do you get when you upgrade, assuming you are an FO who has never had a captain trust you with tiller?

It's done during sim training, where the new FO would sit in the left seat and use the tiller.


Interesting considering where I was you must be trained in the seat you will be flying. I don't think learning the tiller is particularly a big deal but if you weren't in the left seat you didn't steer. Many years ago I had the strange experience of moving to the DC-10 F/O seat and since the F/Os got typed we did all our training in the left seat. Well somewhere close to the end of trg the co. decided to stop typing F/Os. So the night we were to take our chk ride for the right seat the standards airman said to me and my sim partner "sorry you're not getting a type so are you ready?" We asked him then "Well do you mind if we do the chk ride in the left seat since all the trg has been there?" He was taken back and said " did you train in the right seat?" "nope" He went away and made a few phone calls. It was late on a friday night so when he cam back he said "ok guys we can do one of two things. We can pack up and go home and reschedule all your sim trg for the right seat or we can stay here most of the night and I'll give you a type oral and we will do a type chk ride and be done with it." We took the type ride. Funny that another pilot whose right seat ride was the night after was pissed to hear we got the type.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:19 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
How hard is it to taxi, really? Even the C-5, tiller on left side only, wasn’t that big a challenge. I taught dozens to taxi.

GF


How often do we hear about airplanes hitting each other on the ground? Ground damage is very common around the world and also very expensive. Two wingtips clipping each other can result in planes being out of service for days or longer costing well over $100K in repairs.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:26 am

It’s not all that often, besides the pilot taxiing the plane presumably was trained for the task and likely experienced. Everyone can make a mistake, but mistakes don’t indicate the task is difficult or untrainable.

I’ve taught lieutenants with less than 500 hours to safely taxi a C-5.

GF
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:35 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
How hard is it to taxi, really? Even the C-5, tiller on left side only, wasn’t that big a challenge. I taught dozens to taxi.

GF


How often do we hear about airplanes hitting each other on the ground? Ground damage is very common around the world and also very expensive. Two wingtips clipping each other can result in planes being out of service for days or longer costing well over $100K in repairs.



Hitting another plane or anything else isn't because taxing is difficult; it's because someone was not paying attention.
 
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:45 pm

True
 
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Faro
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:30 am

In the case of the quoted incident report, I thought maybe because it's a Scandinavian airline, taxing can be very delicate because of ice-covered aprons and taxiways...in that case it would perhaps make sense...


Faro
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BravoOne
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Re: "Only Pilots-In-Command Are To Be Trained For Ground Taxi"

Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:00 am

Have to laugh as at the airline I grew with it was the PICs option to let the F/O fly from the left seat if he had 500 hours in the aircraft. This was not applicable to the 707/720, only the DC6B and Electra. So the 1st time the Capt says, hey kid you have your 500 hours yet? I of course said sure I do. No training for this left seat at all and no sims for the Electra either. So I jump in the left seat and off we go.
First landing was at ONT and the landing went well but having not really used the brakes on landing I rolled right by an obvious turn off which prompted the Capt in the right seat to ask if I was planning to roll to the end of this 10,000' runway? Oh! I quickly recovered and made it to the ramp. Funny at the time but a lot of fun also.

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