flyguy84
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Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:38 pm

Due to running low on deicing fluid, Southwest has suspended operations at MDW for the remainder of today.

Ouch. This is the second time this year. Talk about poor operations planning.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html
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kabq737
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:58 pm

Wow thats a big mistake! Is this a disadvantage of using secondary airports? Would they be able to purchase deicing fluid from another airline if they were at O'hare? Not trying to be critical here but it sure seems like options at smaller airports are more limited.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:02 am

Well, the past 7-8 days for Chicago and Detroit has been one of the snowiest weeks we've seen in several years. Not so much the amount, but it literally snowed every day and sometimes for 12-18 hours at a time.

They've probably had to apply Type IV on 75% of their departures in the past week.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:14 am

Sounds penny wise and dollar foolish to me. Heads should roll for that.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:14 am

I think WN tends to be too conservative when they order winter-weather supplies.
They have run out of de-icing fluid several times in several different stations when other carriers have been fine.
One of my co-workers was caught by this in Dec 2016. She was flying PHX-MSP and the plane was diverted to STL because WN at MSP ran out of deicer. From Halloween to May Day, WN should make sure they have plenty of deicer at their northern stations, like double what they think they might need since deicing fluid has no use by date...
 
flyguy84
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:22 am

[twoid][/twoid]
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well, the past 7-8 days for Chicago and Detroit has been one of the snowiest weeks we've seen in several years. Not so much the amount, but it literally snowed every day and sometimes for 12-18 hours at a time.

They've probably had to apply Type IV on 75% of their departures in the past week.

Not an excuse. This is Chicago in the winter....
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ORDJOE
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:42 am

flyguy84 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well, the past 7-8 days for Chicago and Detroit has been one of the snowiest weeks we've seen in several years. Not so much the amount, but it literally snowed every day and sometimes for 12-18 hours at a time.

They've probably had to apply Type IV on 75% of their departures in the past week.

Not an excuse. This is Chicago in the winter....



It does not snow as much in the winter in Chicago as people think, to snow everyday for a solid week is very unusual. Plus 90% of MDW is WN so there not really any other airline to buy deicing from
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:54 am

Bricktop wrote:
Sounds penny wise and dollar foolish to me. Heads should roll for that.


Totally agree. No excuse. It's the middle of winter. This isn't a small airline ops that could be forgiven for running out. This is the 2nd largest airline in the world in terms of passengers. This is the one of the largest stations in all of the WN network with 236 departures. How they could not be prepared for this despite all the weather forecasts over a week ago for is beyond me. Just Ridiculous.
 
geologyrocks
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:59 am

I realize it’s not ORD but MDW is hardly a secondary airport if you ask me.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:59 am

ORDJOE wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well, the past 7-8 days for Chicago and Detroit has been one of the snowiest weeks we've seen in several years. Not so much the amount, but it literally snowed every day and sometimes for 12-18 hours at a time.

They've probably had to apply Type IV on 75% of their departures in the past week.

Not an excuse. This is Chicago in the winter....



It does not snow as much in the winter in Chicago as people think, to snow everyday for a solid week is very unusual. Plus 90% of MDW is WN so there not really any other airline to buy deicing from


Actually Chicago is still below the average snowfall for this time of the year albeit not by much as the gap had closed significantly the last four days. With that said the last three winters have been rather mild with below average snowfall. WN took the under on the snowfall for 2018 and lost. They are now paying the price in more ways than one
 
mtnwest1979
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:05 am

usflyer msp wrote:
I think WN tends to be too conservative when they order winter-weather supplies.
They have run out of de-icing fluid several times in several different stations when other carriers have been fine.
One of my co-workers was caught by this in Dec 2016. She was flying PHX-MSP and the plane was diverted to STL because WN at MSP ran out of deicer. From Halloween to May Day, WN should make sure they have plenty of deicer at their northern stations, like double what they think they might need since deicing fluid has no use by date...


Maybe no use by date, but it does deteriorate to an unusable by WN standards state.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
socko
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:14 am

Does SWA Deice their own planes at MDW? In SLC the airport does all the deicing for all airlines. Just wondering
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:34 am

flyguy84 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well, the past 7-8 days for Chicago and Detroit has been one of the snowiest weeks we've seen in several years. Not so much the amount, but it literally snowed every day and sometimes for 12-18 hours at a time.

They've probably had to apply Type IV on 75% of their departures in the past week.

Not an excuse. This is Chicago in the winter....


To snow for 9 consecutive days is unheard of---in fact, it's an all-time record.
 
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qf789
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:03 am

Please keep thread on topic, thread is in the Technical/operations forum as the topic has to do with operations of a specific airline as stated in the opening post of this thread
Forum Moderator
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:24 am

Bricktop wrote:
Sounds penny wise and dollar foolish to me. Heads should roll for that.

The stuff has a long shelf life (years). I've seen it stored outside. Why not buy a surplus.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:38 am

Before we beat up on Southwest, it would be nice to know the exact reasons around the shortage. Just like no fuel vendor keeps inventory at the airport for more than a handful of days at a time, I doubt that Southwest, or any airline for that matter, stocks up on de-icing fluid for the season ahead of winter. I bet they have contracts with suppliers to re-supply as needed. So the question is, did a supplier fail to deliver as expected, is Southwest too optimistic in its time-to-delivery planning, did they not contract enough volume for the season?

I realize the end result is the same, but the recovery may not be.
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737tanker
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:47 am

From what I read on another forum the tanker truck delivering the de-ice fluid damage the tank where WN stored there de-ice fluid.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:51 am

Do they pay their passengers compensation, or do they try to push this on weather related?

I had a look at the website and they talk about weather.

Do airlines get away with having of low stocks of deicing fluid and call delays than weather related?
Last edited by mjoelnir on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:55 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Well, the past 7-8 days for Chicago and Detroit has been one of the snowiest weeks we've seen in several years. Not so much the amount, but it literally snowed every day and sometimes for 12-18 hours at a time.

They've probably had to apply Type IV on 75% of their departures in the past week.

Not an excuse. This is Chicago in the winter....


To snow for 9 consecutive days is unheard of---in fact, it's an all-time record.

Those saying the weather is at fault should note that AA and UA have had no such issues. WN is in a class by itself in terms of bone-headedness.

737tanker wrote:
From what I read on another forum the tanker truck delivering the de-ice fluid damage the tank where WN stored there de-ice fluid.

Wow, having no redundancy. That is embarrassing!

Also, this thread has no place being in Tech Ops. Should be in Civ Av.
 
B757capt
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:10 am

Wow. This should get someone in the procurement department fired. Moving deicing fluid is very easy and takes 24 hours notice at most.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
flyorski
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:18 am

socko wrote:
Does SWA Deice their own planes at MDW? In SLC the airport does all the deicing for all airlines. Just wondering

Having run a bucket for quantem, I can assure you the airport does not deice anyone in SLC. Each airline either has a contractor or does it themselves.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:03 am

Seems strange that the topic of Southwest suspending operations in MDW is in tech ops.

I am surprised that they ran out, but if they are trying to limit inventory and the consecutive days of snow could have increased demand while limiting opportunities to replace inventory
 
Antarius
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:15 am

Why doesn't the airport handle This? The airlines just pay by departure?

The expectation is the airport plows the runway, heats the terminal etc.. So why is this not handled by them too?
2018: AUA CLT IAH HOU DFW COS DEN CLL ORD PEK PVG PHX SFO SJC OAK PHL YYC STL DTW HNL OGG JFK LGA EWR GIG GRU IGU CWB SDU MDW BOS IAD DCA PBI FLL MIA
 
Jshank83
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:22 am

Their twitter is saying it is a malfunctioning pump, but they have fluid. You would think they would have backups.
 
socko
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:43 am

The airport deices all airlines even Delta in SLC, I work for SWA and we battled with the airport for about 3 years over this. No kidding
 
socko
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:50 am

flyorski wrote:
socko wrote:
Does SWA Deice their own planes at MDW? In SLC the airport does all the deicing for all airlines. Just wondering

Having run a bucket for quantem, I can assure you the airport does not deice anyone in SLC. Each airline either has a contractor or does it themselves.

In SLC the airport deices all airlines even Delta, I work for southwest and it was about a three year battle over this, cause everyone does different procedures, but the airport got their own trucks and took over.
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:40 am

To bury this in Tech Ops is a shame to the topic. Did UA and Dao get moved to tech ops since it was an “operations” issue or non aviation since it happened at the hand of airport police?

That aside there can be any number of reasons WN ran out of deice fluid. However the reason it is WN’s responsibility in the end to have a plan and a contingency plan. Twice in one winter is outrageous. I hope the passengers that were inconvenienced vote with their feet and find a new airline of choice. An airline that realizes winter tends to appear on a yearly basis.
 
kiowa
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:29 pm

I agree.
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:25 pm

kiowa wrote:
I agree.


I heard on the news that SWA did not provide accommodation for stranded passengers, claiming the situation to be weather-related. That's stretching it if you ask me. Not very fair to their customers. I wonder if someone will eventually take them to task for that stance . . .
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:44 pm

It was interesting to see the odd ops to position crew and a/c. For example here in GRR:
TPA-MEM-MDW-GRR ran TPA-MEM-GRR
TPA-PHL-MDW-GRR ran TPA-PHL-GRR
MCO-GRR-MDW-FLL-SJU ran MCO-GRR-FLL-SJU
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:06 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
kiowa wrote:
I agree.


I heard on the news that SWA did not provide accommodation for stranded passengers, claiming the situation to be weather-related. That's stretching it if you ask me. Not very fair to their customers. I wonder if someone will eventually take them to task for that stance . . .



If they did not provide accommodation for cancellations due to their issue, then I hope the crafty lawyers are lining up.

IF this gets pushed the tech operations section why didn't the ATL power outage and the NYC snowstorms get placed here also? Weren't those "Operations" issues?
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:34 pm

mcdu wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
kiowa wrote:
I agree.


I heard on the news that SWA did not provide accommodation for stranded passengers, claiming the situation to be weather-related. That's stretching it if you ask me. Not very fair to their customers. I wonder if someone will eventually take them to task for that stance . . .



If they did not provide accommodation for cancellations due to their issue, then I hope the crafty lawyers are lining up.

IF this gets pushed the tech operations section why didn't the ATL power outage and the NYC snowstorms get placed here also? Weren't those "Operations" issues?


If I were one of those customers, I would file a complaint with the DOT, pointing out that it was a logistics issue or equipment issue limited to one airline--skies were sunny, runways were clear and dry, and everyone else operating. Guessing the DOT would agree!

Agree--why isn't this an n the general forum?!?!?
 
phllax
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:08 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
It was interesting to see the odd ops to position crew and a/c. For example here in GRR:
TPA-MEM-MDW-GRR ran TPA-MEM-GRR
TPA-PHL-MDW-GRR ran TPA-PHL-GRR
MCO-GRR-MDW-FLL-SJU ran MCO-GRR-FLL-SJU



That's pretty standard for them, and they do it for weather/storm IRROPS too.
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:40 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
mcdu wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

I heard on the news that SWA did not provide accommodation for stranded passengers, claiming the situation to be weather-related. That's stretching it if you ask me. Not very fair to their customers. I wonder if someone will eventually take them to task for that stance . . .



If they did not provide accommodation for cancellations due to their issue, then I hope the crafty lawyers are lining up.

IF this gets pushed the tech operations section why didn't the ATL power outage and the NYC snowstorms get placed here also? Weren't those "Operations" issues?


If I were one of those customers, I would file a complaint with the DOT, pointing out that it was a logistics issue or equipment issue limited to one airline--skies were sunny, runways were clear and dry, and everyone else operating. Guessing the DOT would agree!

Agree--why isn't this an n the general forum?!?!?


I asked the question as to why to moderators. The issue shows it was "closed" and I received no response as to why. So you can draw your own conclusions as to why this is buried since they don't have a reason they are willing to share.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:32 pm

mcdu wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
kiowa wrote:
I agree.


I heard on the news that SWA did not provide accommodation for stranded passengers, claiming the situation to be weather-related. That's stretching it if you ask me. Not very fair to their customers. I wonder if someone will eventually take them to task for that stance . . .



If they did not provide accommodation for cancellations due to their issue, then I hope the crafty lawyers are lining up.



There is no law or dot rule stating that airlines ever have to pay for accommodations so such a lawsuit would not go very far....
 
gwrudolph
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:02 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
mcdu wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

I heard on the news that SWA did not provide accommodation for stranded passengers, claiming the situation to be weather-related. That's stretching it if you ask me. Not very fair to their customers. I wonder if someone will eventually take them to task for that stance . . .



If they did not provide accommodation for cancellations due to their issue, then I hope the crafty lawyers are lining up.



There is no law or dot rule stating that airlines ever have to pay for accommodations so such a lawsuit would not go very far....


Kinda true and kinda not true. If the contract of carriage says they will provide a hotel, then they could be taken to task for not doing so.

Interestingly enough, your question caused me to quickly do some research. SWA and Frontier are silent on the issue. Spirit says they "may provide," and DL/AA/UA all say they "will provide." Of course, they all have language about "outside of [their] control" which I suppose is sufficiently vague to cover the bases.

I guess I always thought there would be a little more voluntary consistency across carriers so that they don't end up having it someday mandated.
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:14 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
mcdu wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:

I heard on the news that SWA did not provide accommodation for stranded passengers, claiming the situation to be weather-related. That's stretching it if you ask me. Not very fair to their customers. I wonder if someone will eventually take them to task for that stance . . .



If they did not provide accommodation for cancellations due to their issue, then I hope the crafty lawyers are lining up.


Le

There is no law or dot rule stating that airlines ever have to pay for accommodations so such a lawsuit would not go very far....


Let that be an additional reason not to fly carriers like WN. I see UA,DL and AA customers often at hotels being covered by the airline due to “operational” issues.

Really sad to see people fall into the fallacy of the greatness of WN. Didn’t DL pay hotel bills for customers affected by the cluster they had at JFK last month?
 
IPFreely
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:55 am

mcdu wrote:
Didn’t DL pay hotel bills for customers affected by the cluster they had at JFK last month?


No, they didn't. They may have provided hotels for a small number of their platinums but perusing the tweets and replies on their twitter account it's clear that ordinary customers got zip.
 
C525C
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:38 am

flyorski wrote:
socko wrote:
Does SWA Deice their own planes at MDW? In SLC the airport does all the deicing for all airlines. Just wondering

Having run a bucket for quantem, I can assure you the airport does not deice anyone in SLC. Each airline either has a contractor or does it themselves.
...and I can assure YOU that you’re incorrect. Ever since the new de ice pads opened a couple of years ago, Integrated De-icing Solutions (IDS) has been the sole provider (on behalf of SLC Airport) of all Air Carrier de-icing except Delta.

BTW, as someone who has “run a bucket” for Delta, Hudson General, Million Air/TACAir at SLC, I have to ask; who is “Quantem”? Only thing I’ve ever heard about them is they’re a small cargo company renting an office in the top of the old Edde/Tiger/Key/Hudson General/JC North/Atlantic hangar??
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2057
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:50 am

C525C wrote:
Ever since the new de ice pads opened a couple of years ago, Integrated De-icing Solutions (IDS) has been the sole provider (on behalf of SLC Airport) of all Air Carrier de-icing except Delta.


It took about 4 seconds to verify you are correct....

https://www.inlandgroup.ca/ids/media/id ... ss-slc.pdf
 
mcdu
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:26 am

IPFreely wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Didn’t DL pay hotel bills for customers affected by the cluster they had at JFK last month?


No, they didn't. They may have provided hotels for a small number of their platinums but perusing the tweets and replies on their twitter account it's clear that ordinary customers got zip.


I wonder how many “elites” did WN compensate for hotel rooms.

I do hope this gets better front page coverage in the media versus this Easter egg hiding of this by the forum moderators.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1294
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:18 pm

Gotta love the WN spin. Too much air in the tanks....yes that means you didn't have enough glycol in the tank. Sounds like an excuse a teenager would use for running the family car out of gas.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/onweb/2018/02/12/southwest-air-s-chicago-de-icing-stumble-was-third-in-two-months
 
kiowa
Posts: 292
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Re: Southwest has suspended ops at MDW -2/11

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:58 am

mcdu wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Didn’t DL pay hotel bills for customers affected by the cluster they had at JFK last month?


No, they didn't. They may have provided hotels for a small number of their platinums but perusing the tweets and replies on their twitter account it's clear that ordinary customers got zip.


I wonder how many “elites” did WN compensate for hotel rooms.

I do hope this gets better front page coverage in the media versus this Easter egg hiding of this by the forum moderators.


This thread certainly did get buried.

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