WN and Satcom

sunstar · Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:57 pm

When flying to destinations like from FLL to Belize. Does SW use Satcom to stay in contact with company. Are there also plans for cpdl for future destinations like Hawaii.

Woodreau · Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:17 pm

I believe it’s strictly ARINC LDOC over HF. But I could be wrong.

BravoOne · Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:40 pm

duplicate post

BravoOne · Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:43 pm

I doubt that very much. If so, I would imagine that are using an Iridium system and not Inmarsat simply because of cost. CPDLC is not a requirement "yet" for mainland HNL and RNP 10 handles the nav requirements at the moment at least. It will a few more years before the CEP becomes as CPLDC centric although most of the existing aircraft in that region are compliant now. SWA is certainly not yet in the same league as many of the existing operators in that airspace

JAGflyer · Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:13 am

Woodreau wrote:
I believe it’s strictly ARINC LDOC over HF. But I could be wrong.

That would be the only way to do it based on my experience. The ACARS system (VHF) should also work as there are ground stations (SITA or ARINC) on land areas. It is also possible that the ETOPS-certified aircraft in the fleet do in fact have SATCOM.

BravoOne · Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:50 am

Possible...yes, but SATCOM is not a part of any ETOPS quals with perhaps the exception of Polar ops. See AC120-42B, soon to be 42C.

Redbellyguppy · Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:13 am

Cuba requires satcom

OneSexyL1011 · Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:54 am

Anywhere from the mainland US to Belize and or Central America is in VHF coverage. HF is or isn't required depending on the carriers opspec allowances.
LDOC providers for all over water operations are SFO and NY ARINC via Mexnet/Gulfnet frequencies and is guaranteed above FL200. SATCOM is not, in anyway needed for Gulf Of Mexico and Caribbean operations. However, it is preferred if equipped.

To my knowledge, no SWA aircraft is equipped with SATCOM.

Woodreau wrote:
I believe it’s strictly ARINC LDOC over HF. But I could be wrong.

You are mostly correct., however VHF LDOC does cover the majority of the area above 15*N Latitude. .

BravoOne wrote:
CPDLC is not a requirement "yet" for mainland HNL and RNP 10 handles the nav requirements at the moment at least. It will a few more years before the CEP becomes as CPLDC centric although most of the existing aircraft in that region are compliant now. SWA is certainly not yet in the same league as many of the existing operators in that airspace

Redbellyguppy wrote:
Cuba requires satcom

Absolutely 100% False. Cuba is 100% within Gulfnet coverage and SATCOM is not a requirement.

737tanker · Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:36 pm

Some WN aircraft do have SatCom as I have used it before I retired. I believe what Redbellyguppy meant by SatCom being required for Cuba is that since cell phone service is virtually nonexistent in Cuba WN requires that their Cuba flights have SatCom so that the Flight Crews can contact Dispatch if needed.

BravoOne · Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:25 pm

You are wrong and that it simply requires a call out, SWA does not have SATCOM on any 737 and Cuba is darn near line of sight. This is where this forum really fails its readers when someone posts misinformation like this. The day SWA uses SATCOM will be the same day they start 5 trips a day to the moon.

Were you a pilot for SWA and if so please tell use where you used this service?

JAGflyer · Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:39 pm

There is most definitely cell phone service in Cuba (Cubacel/ETECSA) and in fact, my airline (who flies to Cuba extensively) have zero issue with outgoing/incoming calls. I don't see why it would be any different for American carriers as virtually every modern cell phone can access the GSM900/GSM850 networks.

BravoOne · Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:15 pm

JAGflyer wrote:
There is most definitely cell phone service in Cuba (Cubacel/ETECSA) and in fact, my airline (who flies to Cuba extensively) have zero issue with outgoing/incoming calls. I don't see why it would be any different for American carriers as virtually every modern cell phone can access the GSM900/GSM850 networks.

SAT voice is pretty much available world wide and now that Iridium is up and running with it;s robust satellite system it has become quite popular and significantly cheaper than the Inmarsat system. However..that does not maen every airline is using it for ATC or in a datalink capacity. If you are a pilot, can you tell us how you access your SATCOM, through the FMC or is it a standalone communications, COM Manager. HF datalink is a much cheaper solution for many airlines that don't need the voice capability.

I'm pretty sure the GSM900/GSM850 networks that you reference are not apporved for ATC and that;s what we are referring to in this thread, Anyone can have a portable SARCOM set but that not what a unit such as a Honeywell Inmarsat SATCON that is accessed through the FMC as in CPDLC.

Redbellyguppy · Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:36 pm

Well I hope you enjoy your trip to the moon because 39 SWA aircraft are equipped with satcom... all the 83xx 800s and more than several of the skyline conversion 700s. Etops maxes will be delivered with it too and I think at least one may be on the property.

It's similarly cute that someone was so adamant that you don't need satcom in Cuba. While it is true that gulfnet covers Cuba, if page 39 of your IFOM says "SATCOM or HF requred on flights to/from Cuba" then you kind of have to comply with that.

JAGflyer · Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:50 pm

BravoOne wrote:
JAGflyer wrote:
There is most definitely cell phone service in Cuba (Cubacel/ETECSA) and in fact, my airline (who flies to Cuba extensively) have zero issue with outgoing/incoming calls. I don't see why it would be any different for American carriers as virtually every modern cell phone can access the GSM900/GSM850 networks.

SAT voice is pretty much available world wide and now that Iridium is up and running with it;s robust satellite system it has become quite popular and significantly cheaper than the Inmarsat system. However..that does not maen every airline is using it for ATC or in a datalink capacity. If you are a pilot, can you tell us how you access your SATCOM, through the FMC or is it a standalone communications, COM Manager. HF datalink is a much cheaper solution for many airlines that don't need the voice capability.

I'm pretty sure the GSM900/GSM850 networks that you reference are not apporved for ATC and that;s what we are referring to in this thread, Anyone can have a portable SARCOM set but that not what a unit such as a Honeywell Inmarsat SATCON that is accessed through the FMC as in CPDLC.

The GSM900/GSM850 networks I am referring to are for communication on the ground. Each aircraft has a cellular phone and it is used to contact operations/dispatch on the ground. We have no SATCOM system installed on our 737s. In-flight, we can communicate with VHF ACARS (for Cuba it doesn't work unless you're near Havana). If out of range of VHF ACARS (ie. the more easterly WATRs routes) or voice communication is required (medical, urgent maintenance issue, etc) ARINC LDOC is used (HF or VHF over land) for phone patches. AFAIK, the factory-installed SATCOM system (if equipped) on most planes is controlled via the MCDU and audio control panel. Aftermarket systems are the ones with the external handsets.

Redbellyguppy · Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:07 pm

The original question though was does swa use satcom to stay in contact with the company's when flying to Belize and the answer is no, you have vhf arinc for that. But satcom is available on certain aircraft and can be used if necessary.

I'm not sure which airline JAGflyer is a dispatcher for, if it's swa he needs to do some jumpseating on an 83xx tail and ask for a satcom demonstration from the crew.

BravoOne · Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:19 am

We'll I will be onboard a SW 737 in the morning so I'll report back. I noticed Redbellyguppy could not answer haow the crew accessed the SATCOM or whether or not he was cockpit crew? I also have access to the SWA FCOM so we can see what it says as well.

Again if you are not conversant with the subject at hand please don't others with misinformation. SWA is a well run flight operation and they have never been known to waste money on avionics they don't need or are not required. The Cuba requirement is a case in point.

Redbellyguppy · Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:59 am

If I need to dial out I access satcom through the mcdu unless dispatch calls us first, then I just press the SAT button on my audio control panel to talk to them.

Redbellyguppy · Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:16 am

In all the years that we have had satcom, Dispatch has never used it to call me, as we don't go anywhere I couldn't be contacted by acars and acars is cheaper. Like the HF it's kind of a toy right now, its only use is to satisfy the Cuba requirement plus perhaps, the handset in back to talk to Stat MD

Redbellyguppy · Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:17 am

Satcom is installed on

All 83xx
555, 556
7701, 7703, 7725, 7727, 7729, 7731, 7733
7811, 7812, 7813, 7814
And the etops maxes when they arrive.

Redbellyguppy · Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:21 am

If you can not figure out from this that I am a swa pilot, well....

737tanker · Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:43 pm

BravoOne
I was a WN pilot for 22 years and retired February 2017. The procedure for using SatCom was in the WN OpsManual and I used it flying across the US for practice, either by my calling Dispatch or them calling me. As redbellyguppy said only about 5% of the fleet has SatCom

Jagflyer
My son-inlaw is in the Air Force and is assigned to White House Communications and spent 2 weeks in Havana when President Obama went to Cuba. He was the one that told me that there basically was no cell phone service in Cuba and that they had to communicate via SatPhone

737mxguy · Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 pm

Redbellyguppy wrote:
If you can not figure out from this that I am a swa pilot, well....

Glad someone was finally able to bring some facts here. I had to troubleshoot a inop satcom Mel not long ago in HOU. Even maintainece control was a bit baffled by it. Part of the ops check was to use the Satcom menu in the MCDU to call a number (I called my own cell phone) and check the transmission each way.

BravoOne · Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:53 pm

Redbellyguppy wrote:
If you can not figure out from this that I am a swa pilot, well....

Wow the SWA pilots I asked this am just laughed and said they were lucky to have two cans and a long string. They thought maybe you were think of the gate to gate wireless?

BravoOne · Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:54 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Redbellyguppy wrote:
If you can not figure out from this that I am a swa pilot, well....

Wow the SWA pilots I asked this am just laughed and said they were lucky to have two cans and a long string. They thought maybe you were think of the gate to gate wireless?

I think your SWA pilot thingy is just a figment of your imagination:)

BravoOne · Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:01 pm

737tanker wrote:
BravoOne
I was a WN pilot for 22 years and retired February 2017. The procedure for using SatCom was in the WN OpsManual and I used it flying across the US for practice, either by my calling Dispatch or them calling me. As redbellyguppy said only about 5% of the fleet has SatCom

Jagflyer
My son-inlaw is in the Air Force and is assigned to White House Communications and spent 2 weeks in Havana when President Obama went to Cuba. He was the one that told me that there basically was no cell phone service in Cuba and that they had to communicate via SatPhone

Yes the communications suite on AF One is awesome as if I had a clue of what I was looking at. I do recall that there were six stations being manned two hours prior to departure on a domestic leg.

To take this one step further are you telling us that the SWA MAX or 737-800's are fully CPDLC certified in equipment functionality? Certainly is not the message I got from the crew this am I guess they just have not gotten the bulletin yet:)

I may be wrong but I think you can pick up the phone and call Cuba??

BravoOne · Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:08 pm

Okay I owe Redbelly and 737Tanker a public apology as I found a reference to SWA selecting Honeywell as their SATCOM supplier. I am humbled by my gross error, but you need to get a hold of the SWA crew this am who says they have never heard of SATCOM on any of the SWA fleet. They were wearing a blue uniform with US Fag ties just in case you see them walking around he airport. My previous question regarding CPDLC still stands.

LONGisland89 · Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:51 pm

I was a radio operator at NY ARINC for two years and I never worked a SWA flight on any HF or VHF freq.

Redbellyguppy · Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:33 am

When I have an 83xx I do a HF just to see if I can still renenber how and the operator is usually pretty baffled to hear from us.

Redbellyguppy · Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:35 am

The 800s and maxes all have cpdlc. Many of the 700s do too but I believe there was an issue with the arinc buses with the older planes what was an issue they had to work with on the older planes.

JAGflyer · Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:12 am

737tanker wrote:
My son-inlaw is in the Air Force and is assigned to White House Communications and spent 2 weeks in Havana when President Obama went to Cuba. He was the one that told me that there basically was no cell phone service in Cuba and that they had to communicate via SatPhone

Most likely, they used SatPhones due to security reasons as I'm sure the US was concerned with the idea of the Cuban government (who operates the nation's only mobile phone provider) intercepting their calls. The cellular infrastructure worked fine for me and any of the phones on the aircraft (and that includes some 8-odd airports off the top of my head).

BravoOne · Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:19 am

Redbellyguppy wrote:
The 800s and maxes all have cpdlc. Many of the 700s do too but I believe there was an issue with the arinc buses with the older planes what was an issue they had to work with on the older planes.

So do you have AD-C (Contract) as that is part of the FANS 1 suite. Also are you using ADS B, both I and Out? If you have SATCOM you usually eliminate the dual HF requirement and just have a single unit although a number of operators will retain the dual HF for dispatch reliability.

Redbellyguppy · Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:25 am

The satcom 800s (83xx) also have dual HF. A much smaller number of 700s do too. I'd have to look into the guts of the books to see about the full planned fans capability but right now only the newer planes even have the capability much less having all of the components installed. It's not a mission requirement for the lions share of our fleet.

737tanker · Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:26 pm

JAGflyer wrote:
737tanker wrote:
My son-inlaw is in the Air Force and is assigned to White House Communications and spent 2 weeks in Havana when President Obama went to Cuba. He was the one that told me that there basically was no cell phone service in Cuba and that they had to communicate via SatPhone

Most likely, they used SatPhones due to security reasons as I'm sure the US was concerned with the idea of the Cuban government (who operates the nation's only mobile phone provider) intercepting their calls. The cellular infrastructure worked fine for me and any of the phones on the aircraft (and that includes some 8-odd airports off the top of my head).

All I know is that he told me that their personal cell phones didn’t work and that they had to use SatPhones even for personal calls

BravoOne · Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:21 pm

As someone else posted cell phones are probably a security risk, but they do work in Cuba and there is nothing special about calling in or out while using one, as long as you don't care who listens in on your calls.

737max8 · Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:52 am

Wow.....as someone who works on this at SWA, the amount of misinformation in this thread is truly baffling. I will not be posting any information as most is to be confidential. But wow. Especially regarding MAX aircraft.

But just look at every Cuba flight...operated by 83XX tail numbers. Don't you think there is a reason?

WNCrew · Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:06 pm

737max8 wrote:
Wow.....as someone who works on this at SWA, the amount of misinformation in this thread is truly baffling. I will not be posting any information as most is to be confidential. But wow. Especially regarding MAX aircraft.

But just look at every Cuba flight...operated by 83XX tail numbers. Don't you think there is a reason?

I'm going to give this post a HUGEEEEEE second. Wow, just WOW! ... says a lot about our company, if this is how our employees think, how do our Leaders think (so much ignorance) in my opinion... so many people running around thinking they know things they know nothing about.

....and BravoOne... glad to see the apology but, you went on and on and ON that you were right. A little scary actually, especially for information that is fairly basic. It's like arguing that the -800 doesn't have two engines.

BravoOne · Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:57 pm

WNCrew wrote:
737max8 wrote:
Wow.....as someone who works on this at SWA, the amount of misinformation in this thread is truly baffling. I will not be posting any information as most is to be confidential. But wow. Especially regarding MAX aircraft.

But just look at every Cuba flight...operated by 83XX tail numbers. Don't you think there is a reason?

I'm going to give this post a HUGEEEEEE second. Wow, just WOW! ... says a lot about our company, if this is how our employees think, how do our Leaders think (so much ignorance) in my opinion... so many people running around thinking they know things they know nothing about.

....and BravoOne... glad to see the apology but, you went on and on and ON that you were right. A little scary actually, especially for information that is fairly basic. It's like arguing that the -800 doesn't have two engines.

Sorry but I don't get the -800 two engine remarks? It would have helped the debate if ole redbelly could have pointed to a reference like the one I found from Honeywell. No problem I was wrong and I should backed off earlier. Still does not seem to know if its Inmarsat in Iridium and all the Cuba stuff which is clearly wrong did not help.

Redbellyguppy · Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:56 pm

You still don't get that if our manuals say we have to have it, we have to have it. It's ok we'll keep doing it "clearly wrong."

Not only did I give you every single tail number I even told you how I use the equipment. Wow. Just, wow indeed.

BravoOne · Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:06 pm

Inmarsat or Iridium that was the question. Get over yourself please. I said I apologized already. I could care less about the tail numbers. .

7673mech · Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:40 am

BravoOne wrote:
Inmarsat or Iridium that was the question. Get over yourself please. I said I apologized already. I could care less about the tail numbers. .

No. Actually you need to get over yourself. You kept arguing even after he told you the facts, a mechanic chimed in and you wouldn't let it go.

barney captain · Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:09 am

Quite the unbelievable (pun intended) thread.

I can confirm what Red and Tanker have stated is 100% accurate. WRT the CPDLC, I believe the exception is to find an a/c without it at this point. We got our first SATCOM equipped a/c nearly 6 years ago in March 2012.

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:30 am

barney captain wrote:
Quite the unbelievable (pun intended) thread.

I can confirm what Red and Tanker have stated is 100% accurate. WRT the CPDLC, I believe the exception is to find an a/c without it at this point. We got our first SATCOM equipped a/c nearly 6 years ago in March 2012.

CPDLC doesnt require SATCOM. Domestically, ATC here does it through VHF so most carriers with basic ACARS can do CPDLC and its slowly being expanded. I am a bit puzzled though why WN would pay for the 737-800s to have SATCOM unless they were going to get the ETOPS certification. Many if not most operators everyday go to Cuba, Central America and the Carib without SATCOM. It is in VHF coverage for most areas and is well covered by HF. SATCOM makes a bit more sense for Hawaii as even though its not required yet, a lot of communications are done by CPDLC through SATCOM on the Hawaii tracks with Oakland. Plus for Hawaii, I imagine that even with the MAX that you guys will need to re-dispatch a lot of the flights to make it work when you are carrying 10% reserves. You can receive a re-dispatch via HF through ARINC but it is tedious and time consuming. A lot easier if you have ACARS through the SATCOM system. HF voice patches with your dispatcher and Medlink can be very difficult as well as the quality of transmission varies. A proper SATCOM system is perfect for voice comms.

barney captain · Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:48 am

I am a bit puzzled though why WN would pay for the 737-800s to have SATCOM unless they were going to get the ETOPS certification

Those first 29 800's are ETOPS - and that was the plan when we took delivery. Now we will finally use them for their intended purpose.

BravoOne · Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:31 am

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Quite the unbelievable (pun intended) thread.

I can confirm what Red and Tanker have stated is 100% accurate. WRT the CPDLC, I believe the exception is to find an a/c without it at this point. We got our first SATCOM equipped a/c nearly 6 years ago in March 2012.

CPDLC doesnt require SATCOM. Domestically, ATC here does it through VHF so most carriers with basic ACARS can do CPDLC and its slowly being expanded. I am a bit puzzled though why WN would pay for the 737-800s to have SATCOM unless they were going to get the ETOPS certification. Many if not most operators everyday go to Cuba, Central America and the Carib without SATCOM. It is in VHF coverage for most areas and is well covered by HF. SATCOM makes a bit more sense for Hawaii as even though its not required yet, a lot of communications are done by CPDLC through SATCOM on the Hawaii tracks with Oakland. Plus for Hawaii, I imagine that even with the MAX that you guys will need to re-dispatch a lot of the flights to make it work when you are carrying 10% reserves. You can receive a re-dispatch via HF through ARINC but it is tedious and time consuming. A lot easier if you have ACARS through the SATCOM system. HF voice patches with your dispatcher and Medlink can be very difficult as well as the quality of transmission varies. A proper SATCOM system is perfect for voice comms.

Redispatch need not be cumbersome, be it via data link or heaven forbid HF, and in the case of SWA it would not be very likely unless you were bypassing a coastal gateway and proceeding on to something like LAS or SMF, or say dropping into PDX when SEA was your destination. I think the Alaska does that from time to in their -800's.

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:36 pm

BravoOne wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Quite the unbelievable (pun intended) thread.

I can confirm what Red and Tanker have stated is 100% accurate. WRT the CPDLC, I believe the exception is to find an a/c without it at this point. We got our first SATCOM equipped a/c nearly 6 years ago in March 2012.

CPDLC doesnt require SATCOM. Domestically, ATC here does it through VHF so most carriers with basic ACARS can do CPDLC and its slowly being expanded. I am a bit puzzled though why WN would pay for the 737-800s to have SATCOM unless they were going to get the ETOPS certification. Many if not most operators everyday go to Cuba, Central America and the Carib without SATCOM. It is in VHF coverage for most areas and is well covered by HF. SATCOM makes a bit more sense for Hawaii as even though its not required yet, a lot of communications are done by CPDLC through SATCOM on the Hawaii tracks with Oakland. Plus for Hawaii, I imagine that even with the MAX that you guys will need to re-dispatch a lot of the flights to make it work when you are carrying 10% reserves. You can receive a re-dispatch via HF through ARINC but it is tedious and time consuming. A lot easier if you have ACARS through the SATCOM system. HF voice patches with your dispatcher and Medlink can be very difficult as well as the quality of transmission varies. A proper SATCOM system is perfect for voice comms.

Redispatch need not be cumbersome, be it via data link or heaven forbid HF, and in the case of SWA it would not be very likely unless you were bypassing a coastal gateway and proceeding on to something like LAS or SMF, or say dropping into PDX when SEA was your destination. I think the Alaska does that from time to in their -800's.

You can and sometimes need to use ITO/KOA for westbound re-dispatch airports or even backtracking to the departure/destination. Ive used ITO/KOA on westbounds and SFO/SJC on eastbounds to the west coast. These narrow bodies especially when full can be at the edge of the envelope weight and tankage wise. When you stick as many people as WN does, landing weight will become an issue at times along with ramp weight and tankage when you are on full 10% reserves. Im willing to bet that both the MAX and 737-800 will be big problems for WN eastbound if they ever serve LIH/OGG so saving every drop of fuel will be essential to carrying as many people as possible. I already know WN pilots frequently go the extra distance with dispatchers and the ops agents to get everyone on when weight is an issue. No doubt re-dispatching will be common for them to get every one on. I bet it will be the first question both the captain and ops agent ask the dispatcher if they are weight restricted on full 10% reserves.

BravoOne · Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:51 am

I just ran an MAX flight plan westbound to PHNL and had to add 2200Lbs to meet a 2nd ETP fuel shortage. Still well under the MTOGW and payload.

Redbellyguppy · Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:14 am

Out of curiosity what does your software use for the weight of a max, empty, and the weight of 175 passengers?

BravoOne · Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:35 pm

Redbellyguppy wrote:
Out of curiosity what does your software use for the weight of a max, empty, and the weight of 175 passengers?

I'll get back to you on Sunday. On the road at the moment, but I seem recall 210 Lbs or 95 Kgs for the pax. When you say empty, do you mean Basic Empty Operating Weight that includes all the support such as galley equip and things like rafts, vests, etc, or Delivered Empty Weight which would be tthe weight of the airplane when the airline picked it up from Boeing?

BravoOne · Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Just to follow up on your question, the MAX has a certified max payload of 42,000Lbs FWIW,

Redbellyguppy · Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:00 pm

Operating Empty Weight. We're flight planning a hypothetical Hawaii flight here so the other number would just be fun trivia.

Certified max is nice but you have to lift the plane first, then the gas second so what it's certified for and what it'll do in real life are two separate things.

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