User avatar
BalkanBoy
Topic Author
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:06 pm

A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:57 pm

I understand the most common thrust setting for takeoff on the a320 series is FLEX. I found a lot of information explaining FLEX and TOGA, but I would like a general idea of how often TOGA power is used during takeoff. I know some carriers have SOP's that require TOGA thrust during inclement weather, and at specific airports/runways. I imagine that dispatch determines the optimum FLEX temp and puts it in the preflight paperwork. Do bus pilots have ability to elect to execute a TOGA power takeoff instead to "buy" time if they are running late? Thanks in advance!
 
Woodreau
Posts: 1606
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:04 pm

Pilots can choose to use TOGA power for takeoff anytime even if FLEX is computed.

However using TOGA isn’t going to save on flight time

The thrust levers are only in FLEX or TOGA for less than 5 minutes for a given flight (usually less than 2 minutes). The limitation is that you can only be in TOGA or FLEX/MCT for a maximum of 5 minutes or 10 minutes if you are single engine.

Once you take off there really isn’t a lot you can do to “make up time”. You can fly M0.81 or try to negotiate shortcuts with ATC but the difference between M0.81 and M0.78 is 18kts. So over a 3 hour flight you save maybe 7-8 minutes by flying M0.81 instead of M0.78. Where you can make up time is by taxiing fast on the ground (a few minutes) or turning the aircraft at the gate quicker (10-15 minutes). But since my priority is safety I get there when I get there. If I can get there on time that is awesome.

The only time TOGA is required is if the takeoff performance won’t return a FLEX setting. Well there are a few other times too, i.e. contaminated runway, etc. But you can choose TOGA anytime. No one flies leaving the thrust levers in the TOGA detent.

The point of a FLEX takeoff is to save on engine wear and to extend engine life.

At one airline (non-Airbus) pilots would only do TOGA takeoffs due to stalled contract negotiations. The bean counters probably lost more money doing more frequent engine changes than if they’d just continued negotiating.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
User avatar
Florianopolis
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:54 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:47 am

Question: In general, if the airplane takes off at MTOW, or at the maximum usable weight given temperature and runway length, it will be a TOGA thrust takeoff? I'm thinking a Phoenix or Vegas transcon on a July afternoon is probably a TOGA takeoff ? In other words, you keep loading the airplane until you run out of payload, runway, or thrust? If you've maxed out runway, you're probably maxing out thrust?
 
User avatar
DFWflightpath
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:55 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:15 am

Woodreau wrote:
At one airline (non-Airbus) pilots would only do TOGA takeoffs due to stalled contract negotiations. The bean counters probably lost more money doing more frequent engine changes than if they’d just continued negotiating.


Wow that’s interesting. How many TOGA takeoffs would it take to impact engine wear?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 12340
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:33 am

Florianopolis wrote:
Question: In general, if the airplane takes off at MTOW, or at the maximum usable weight given temperature and runway length, it will be a TOGA thrust takeoff? I'm thinking a Phoenix or Vegas transcon on a July afternoon is probably a TOGA takeoff ? In other words, you keep loading the airplane until you run out of payload, runway, or thrust? If you've maxed out runway, you're probably maxing out thrust?


Not necessarily, those airports have long runways. Also most engines these days are designed to keep maximum thrust beyond sea level, so in a hot day at sea level they should still have thrust margins.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Flow2706
Posts: 146
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:04 am

BalkanBoy wrote:
I know some carriers have SOP's that require TOGA thrust during inclement weather, and at specific airports/runways. I imagine that dispatch determines the optimum FLEX temp and puts it in the preflight paperwork.

Actually takeoff performance (Speeds and also FLEX temperature) is usually calculated by the crew, either by using some software on the EFB (Airbus provides a software called "FlySmart" for that purpose, but some airlines have their own software) or by using paper charts. But it is possible that the takeoff data could be calculated by dispatch and then send trough ACARS as well, but I've never flown for an airline that does it this way...you can not use FLEX on contaminated runways and when wind shear is expected.
DFWflightpath wrote:
Wow that’s interesting. How many TOGA takeoffs would it take to impact engine wear?

Every TOGA takeoff adds wear to the engine, so the idea is just to minimize TOGA takeoffs and to maximize FLEX temperature (obviously you have the least engine wear with the highest FLEX temperature, i.e. with the lowest possible thrust - however it is said that the "first degrees" have the biggest impact, you increasing the FLEX temperature from 45 to 47 will be saving a lot more than increasing the FLEX from 65 to 67). Interesting fact: FLEX Takeoffs actually increase the fuel usage as more time will be spend in the takeoff phase - however the saving in maintenance costs greatly outweighs the small fuel saving of a TOGA takeoff...
Florianopolis wrote:
Question: In general, if the airplane takes off at MTOW, or at the maximum usable weight given temperature and runway length, it will be a TOGA thrust takeoff? I'm thinking a Phoenix or Vegas transcon on a July afternoon is probably a TOGA takeoff ? In other words, you keep loading the airplane until you run out of payload, runway, or thrust? If you've maxed out runway, you're probably maxing out thrust?

As zeke says its not so much an issue with weight, but rather with runway lenght. I have done FLEX Takeoffs at MTOW in Hamburg (Runway length 3250m), however on shorter runways its often necessary depending on payload and conditions (f.e. in Paderborn with a 2180m runway you are rather limited but the actual conditions have a huge impact on the maximum weights and Flex Temperatures - a 20 degree shift in wind direction can increase or decrease your allowable takeoff weight by one ton or so...this can be an issue when going to the canary islands, on a "bad" day you can be limited to maybe 73 tons but in favorable conditions you can take almost MTOW, 77 tons. Obviously if you have some margin to your allowable takeoff weight you will also get a Flex Temperature)
 
Redbellyguppy
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:57 am

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:13 pm

The only thing TOGA is going to buy you is stopping margin and perhaps some fourth segment climb. That said, stopping margin is valuable if you need it.
 
User avatar
DFWflightpath
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:55 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:24 am

Redbellyguppy wrote:
The only thing TOGA is going to buy you is stopping margin and perhaps some fourth segment climb. That said, stopping margin is valuable if you need it.


Could you explain how TOGA takeoff impacts 4th segment climb (to a novice)?
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 18391
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:21 pm

Flow2706 wrote:
BalkanBoy wrote:
I know some carriers have SOP's that require TOGA thrust during inclement weather, and at specific airports/runways. I imagine that dispatch determines the optimum FLEX temp and puts it in the preflight paperwork.

Actually takeoff performance (Speeds and also FLEX temperature) is usually calculated by the crew, either by using some software on the EFB (Airbus provides a software called "FlySmart" for that purpose, but some airlines have their own software) or by using paper charts. But it is possible that the takeoff data could be calculated by dispatch and then send trough ACARS as well, but I've never flown for an airline that does it this way...you can not use FLEX on contaminated runways and when wind shear is expected.


With ACARS, it's not so much that dispatch calculates it for you. ACARS is just a transmission method in this context. The calculation is made by an automated remote system. You punch the numbers into the FM interface and send them via ACARS, and the system automatically returns the performance "card" via ACARS. If ACARS isn't working, the numbers can be entered and received via alternative methods such as on a web page or even SMS.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Woodreau
Posts: 1606
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:08 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
With ACARS, it's not so much that dispatch calculates it for you. ACARS is just a transmission method in this context. The calculation is made by an automated remote system. You punch the numbers into the FM interface and send them via ACARS, and the system automatically returns the performance "card" via ACARS. If ACARS isn't working, the numbers can be entered and received via alternative methods such as on a web page or even SMS.


oh, you should hear the FO gnashing of teeth when ACARS isn't working. "What I have to get ATIS, PDC the old fashioned way over the radio?" Never mind trying to get performance numbers over the radio...... Oh I forgot to call our out and off times too (just as we're about to land at the destination.)
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 18391
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:11 am

Woodreau wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
With ACARS, it's not so much that dispatch calculates it for you. ACARS is just a transmission method in this context. The calculation is made by an automated remote system. You punch the numbers into the FM interface and send them via ACARS, and the system automatically returns the performance "card" via ACARS. If ACARS isn't working, the numbers can be entered and received via alternative methods such as on a web page or even SMS.


oh, you should hear the FO gnashing of teeth when ACARS isn't working. "What I have to get ATIS, PDC the old fashioned way over the radio?" Never mind trying to get performance numbers over the radio...... Oh I forgot to call our out and off times too (just as we're about to land at the destination.)


:rotfl:

I know the feeling. "Talk to someone on the radio? What are we, cavemen?"

A few months ago we were having issues logging on to Rekyavik CPDLC and we needed our oceanic clearance. Instead of giving us two more minutes to sort the issue, Reykjavik insisted we copy the clearance by voice. Over HF! The FO had to ask them to "say again" about ten times. Oceanic clearances are looong and copying down lat/long references over a scratchy radio is not ideal.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Redbellyguppy
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:57 am

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:00 am

DFWflightpath wrote:
Redbellyguppy wrote:
The only thing TOGA is going to buy you is stopping margin and perhaps some fourth segment climb. That said, stopping margin is valuable if you need it.


Could you explain how TOGA takeoff impacts 4th segment climb (to a novice)?


Sorry I meant to type in second segment climb not fourth. I was talking to my kid about something fourth grade was doing and got distracted.
 
User avatar
DFWflightpath
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:55 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:39 pm

Redbellyguppy wrote:
DFWflightpath wrote:
Redbellyguppy wrote:
The only thing TOGA is going to buy you is stopping margin and perhaps some fourth segment climb. That said, stopping margin is valuable if you need it.


Could you explain how TOGA takeoff impacts 4th segment climb (to a novice)?


Sorry I meant to type in second segment climb not fourth. I was talking to my kid about something fourth grade was doing and got distracted.



ha! makes more sense now
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 2024
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:56 am

Woodreau wrote:
oh, you should hear the FO gnashing of teeth when ACARS isn't working. "What I have to get ATIS, PDC the old fashioned way over the radio?" Never mind trying to get performance numbers over the radio...... Oh I forgot to call our out and off times too (just as we're about to land at the destination.)


Just had my first ACARS INOP since moving to the left seat. It was really nice not having to do radio closeout for numbers finally!
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 18391
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 am

tb727 wrote:
Woodreau wrote:
oh, you should hear the FO gnashing of teeth when ACARS isn't working. "What I have to get ATIS, PDC the old fashioned way over the radio?" Never mind trying to get performance numbers over the radio...... Oh I forgot to call our out and off times too (just as we're about to land at the destination.)


Just had my first ACARS INOP since moving to the left seat. It was really nice not having to do radio closeout for numbers finally!


This is why I love the EFB. :D
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 12340
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:28 am

Starlionblue wrote:
A few months ago we were having issues logging on to Rekyavik CPDLC and we needed our oceanic clearance. Instead of giving us two more minutes to sort the issue, Reykjavik insisted we copy the clearance by voice. Over HF! The FO had to ask them to "say again" about ten times. Oceanic clearances are looong and copying down lat/long references over a scratchy radio is not ideal.


Aren’t you an SO ? Why was the RQ doing the HF ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 18391
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

Re: A320 Family TOGA Thrust Rarity

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:07 am

zeke wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
A few months ago we were having issues logging on to Rekyavik CPDLC and we needed our oceanic clearance. Instead of giving us two more minutes to sort the issue, Reykjavik insisted we copy the clearance by voice. Over HF! The FO had to ask them to "say again" about ten times. Oceanic clearances are looong and copying down lat/long references over a scratchy radio is not ideal.


Aren’t you an SO ? Why was the RQ doing the HF ?


If memory serves I tried first, but the reception was terrible. After a while, the FO took HF to see if they could hear him better, and right then they gave us the clearance.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: arcticcruiser and 11 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos