YoungExecutive
Topic Author
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:34 pm

Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:40 pm

So my company has asked me to look at and master the P25 process over the next few months.....and I think I may need some help.

First off....there are 1700+ regulations...wow. My first thought, this may take some time, especially since I'm not a lawyer and never took lawyer as a foreign language. If anyone already has an understanding of it, please speak up. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

My first question comes from the SFAR No.13. I believe it's only applicable to DC-3 and L-18's. Is this correct?

Again, thanks in advance. This thread may get lengthy.

Nick
 
BravoOne
Posts: 2739
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:06 pm

I have operated under several different 125 Certs. Not difficult as long as you have an open and honest relationship with your local FAA office. I know nothing about SFAR 13. Are you planning to operate a DC3 on this certificate? If not what are you planning to operate? My 125 background is/was a B757 and 767 so I may have little to share.
 
MO11
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Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:11 pm

I believe he is talking FAR 25, which is aircraft certification. And yes SFAR 13 does only apply to the DC-3 and Lodestar since they are theoretically transport category airplanes that were certificated outside of current TC regs. Probably a moot issue now.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:53 am

Please reply with the reasoning for needing to be conversant in Part 25. It’s a highly technical document with even larger “acceptable means of compliance” handbook, several Advisory Circulars and 90+ amendments. First, I assume you are not in the aircraft test and certification business. Second, based on that, Part 25 and the amendments apply different,y depending on the date of TC application by the design and manufacturer. As operators put in service type certificates aircraft, knowledge of Part 25 is usually ancillary to performance engineering.

GF
 
YoungExecutive
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:34 pm

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:47 am

Thanks for the responses, MO11 answered it perfectly. This is for a new aircraft, it's a regional twin turboprop freighter we're hoping to certify in the second quarter of this year.

I'm sure I'll be asking more than a few questions in the coming weeks.

From my understanding, SFAR No. 109 is mostly for a passenger aircraft and won't apply here either.

I won't sit here and make yall go through every single requirement with me. Just want to know my train of thought is correct.

Thanks again
 
OldAeroGuy
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Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:50 am

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:32 am

FAR Part 25 has been developed and amended over many years and is a bit arcane for the new pupil.

The FAA has developed Advisory Circulars (AC's) that explain how to interpret and comply with Part 25.

I'd suggest starting with AC25-7C. It gives a good explanation of how and why flight testing is performed and how the flight test data are used to develop airplane performance information that complies with Part 25 and building flight manuals.

Start with that and ask questions on the Forum. Then start moving through the rest of the AC's. Some of the Systems ones are doozies.

And good luck in mastering all of Part 25 in a few months. It covers all engineering disciplines used in commercial transport design and development. Engineers spend years understanding those that apply to their specific discipline.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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fr8mech
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Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:33 am

YoungExecutive wrote:
This is for a new aircraft, it's a regional twin turboprop freighter we're hoping to certify in the second quarter of this year.

I'm sure I'll be asking more than a few questions in the coming weeks.


Not to state the obvious, but I will; if you're actually trying to certify a new aircraft, THIS YEAR, you most certainly should have already been talking to a professional(s) about the process and requirements. Not posting the question on an enthusiasts/hobbyist/trolling website.

The cynical me says you're a student trying to get a couple of shortcuts and skate on some research. But, that's just me.
When seconds count...the authorities are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 2739
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:09 am

MO11 wrote:
I believe he is talking FAR 25, which is aircraft certification. And yes SFAR 13 does only apply to the DC-3 and Lodestar since they are theoretically transport category airplanes that were certificated outside of current TC regs. Probably a moot issue now.


Thanks for the correction:)
 
YoungExecutive
Topic Author
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:34 pm

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:47 pm

I realize my original post may sound skeptical and silly. I understand a newbie asking broad questions about a very difficult and technical piece of regulation is odd, especially claiming I must master it in the next few months. But that's what my company has charged me with.

We are dealing with professionals, our engineering firm is top notch who all came from Boeing. I'm absolutely sure they are helping design the aircraft to meet all standards and regulations. I've been asked to back them up if they need anything from our side and that means having a basic (to start) understanding of the Part 25 cert. I know this will be a process, taking much longer than the allotted 5-6 months but I need to start somewhere.

Thanks for the recommendations OldAeroGuy, I'll start with the AC's to try to grasp basic understanding of how to interpret the P25.
Until my next question...thanks again
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:10 pm

If certification is planned for Q2 2018, the plane, a twin turboprop freighter, must be announced and well into flight test now. Certainly, engine and major component suppliers announced and certified, flight envelope expansion done, basics of performance done, systems tests well in progress and reliability and functionality tests beginning. And, you’re just now learning about Part 25? Rather dubious, I’d say.

GF
 
26point2
Posts: 993
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:51 am

Many years ago when faced with a stack of FARs to learn for the first time I was relieved to learn that memorizing all the rules was not the point...knowing where to find the answers was. A general understating of Part 25 is a must but You're not expected to memorize FAR 25, who would do that?, only to have a grasp of where to find the answers. No? Sounds manageable to me...
 
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TZTriStar500
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Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:38 am

Much of my career has been in aircraft modifications and the STC process is similar to a new Type Certificate. You need to start with reading FAA Order 8110.4c which is the process the FAA uses for TCs and STCs. While part 25 is the cert basis, part 21 is also the certification procedures and as mentioned already, Advisory Circulars (AC) are acceptable means to comply with 21 or 25, but also not mandatory means. You also need to ask for the certification plan from the engineering and certification group as this documents each reg being complied to by paragraph and amendment level usually through a matrix which has been approved by the FAA. Having this can then direct you to the regs you can become familiar with instead of trying to learn everything in 25.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
gtae07
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Re: Understanding the Part 25 Certification

Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:37 am

You're trying to "master" all of Part 25 in six months?

BWAHAHAAAHAHAAA!

It takes years for people to get approved to sign off designs and aircraft to small parts of Part 25 as a DER or AR. Good luck!

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