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crownvic wrote:I'm kind of thinking that since it was the last flight, Delta would have removed certain seats to reduce weight without compromising a minimum level of stability/balance as well as putting only the exact amount of fuel needed (plus a contingency amount) to get the 747 to its final resting place. Whatever little bit remains after that would be cheap (money, time, effort) for maintenance crew to remove. This is just my guess, I'm not an pilot (yet) or a flight dispatcher.With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .
BravoOne wrote:There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?
mmo wrote:Having taken several aircraft to be stored/scrapped, the fuel that is in the tanks when you arrive stays there. The fuel load is certainly as legal as it could be, but it's not worth the expense of getting the fuel out of the tanks. You can't sell it back to the fuel company and it could only be used in another one of your airline's aircraft.
adanhamidu wrote:crownvic wrote:I'm kind of thinking that since it was the last flight, Delta would have removed certain seats to reduce weight without compromising a minimum level of stability/balance as well as putting only the exact amount of fuel needed (plus a contingency amount) to get the 747 to its final resting place. Whatever little bit remains after that would be cheap (money, time, effort) for maintenance crew to remove. This is just my guess, I'm not an pilot (yet) or a flight dispatcher.With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .
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trnswrld wrote:BravoOne wrote:There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?
Jet A in a tractor?
BravoOne wrote:mmo wrote:Having taken several aircraft to be stored/scrapped, the fuel that is in the tanks when you arrive stays there. The fuel load is certainly as legal as it could be, but it's not worth the expense of getting the fuel out of the tanks. You can't sell it back to the fuel company and it could only be used in another one of your airline's aircraft.
Doesn't quite make sense?? Certainly would not want to start cutting up an airplane with any amount of fuel in the tanks?? I know you would and with min fuel but even that would be a few tousand pounds in a 747.
As for the tractor fuel I vase that on the fact that one of my fellow corporate pilots use to take a couple of 50 gl drums of it home to his farm. I thought he was burning it in his tractor?? Sadly he was killed last year while cutting down tree on his property.
77west wrote:trnswrld wrote:BravoOne wrote:There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?
Jet A in a tractor?
JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)
So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.
Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.
77west wrote:trnswrld wrote:BravoOne wrote:There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?
Jet A in a tractor?
JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)
So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.
Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.
N415XJ wrote:77west wrote:trnswrld wrote:Jet A in a tractor?
JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)
So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.
Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.
That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?
77west wrote:In addition to what you just said, i so remember as a kid reading in "Encyclopedia Of World Air Power by C.J. Freeman" or so, that a few Soviet jet fighters did run on diesel. I was so surprised then that I thought the info was a grand typo-error in the book. Interesting fact though.N415XJ wrote:77west wrote:
JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)
So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.
Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.
That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?
Yes - but I don't think it would be very good for the engine, diesel has much more sulphur and other gunk in it that would probably cause issues, as well as possibly not the same freezing point and several other factors. But theoretically yes. Turbines, especially marine and power generation turbines (often derived from aero turbines) are actually often able to accept a variety of fuels.
Adispatcher wrote:That is a lot of fuel left over, even if the 747 fuel summation system says it's a little.adanhamidu wrote:crownvic wrote:I'm kind of thinking that since it was the last flight, Delta would have removed certain seats to reduce weight without compromising a minimum level of stability/balance as well as putting only the exact amount of fuel needed (plus a contingency amount) to get the 747 to its final resting place. Whatever little bit remains after that would be cheap (money, time, effort) for maintenance crew to remove. This is just my guess, I'm not an pilot (yet) or a flight dispatcher.With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .
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Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.
And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.
I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.
77west wrote:N415XJ wrote:77west wrote:
JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)
So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.
Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.
That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?
Yes - but I don't think it would be very good for the engine, diesel has much more sulphur and other gunk in it that would probably cause issues, as well as possibly not the same freezing point and several other factors. But theoretically yes. Turbines, especially marine and power generation turbines (often derived from aero turbines) are actually often able to accept a variety of fuels.
Adispatcher wrote:adanhamidu wrote:
Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.
And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.
I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:Adispatcher wrote:adanhamidu wrote:
Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.
And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.
I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.
These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:Adispatcher wrote:adanhamidu wrote:
Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.
And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.
I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.
These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.
mmo wrote:MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:Adispatcher wrote:
These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.
In theory, what you say is true. However, at NW, the PIO insisted all operations were conducted under 121 rules, just like a normal operation. Our engine out ferries, for example, had to have a dry runway and be VFR. But those were internal restrictions. At the time, UA, also did their engine out ferries under 121 rules. It really makes sense. If anything goes wrong and you would have been better off under 121, you will surely get roasted by the FAA, and the POI will be certainly called on the carpet. It's nothing more than CYA....
77west wrote:trnswrld wrote:BravoOne wrote:There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?
Jet A in a tractor?
JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)
So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.
Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:Adispatcher wrote:adanhamidu wrote:
Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.
And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.
I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.
These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.
BravoOne wrote:
I believe you can dispatch No Alt Required under Part 121 as well. Keep in mind the weather is good 350 days out of year in this part of he world.
BravoOne wrote:Well in my 55+ years I have dispatched on numerous occasions with NO ALT REQ so your comments , while perhaps spot on, do not reflect the real world, assuming I understand your position. I have been in and out of AVQ a dozen or more times but I don't recall how the flight plans were built.
In may past we did not use an alternate on many redispatch flight plans but that's another story.
mmo wrote:Having taken several aircraft to be stored/scrapped, the fuel that is in the tanks when you arrive stays there. The fuel load is certainly as legal as it could be, but it's not worth the expense of getting the fuel out of the tanks. You can't sell it back to the fuel company and it could only be used in another one of your airline's aircraft.
trnswrld wrote:BravoOne wrote:There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?
Jet A in a tractor?
N415XJ wrote:77west wrote:trnswrld wrote:Jet A in a tractor?
JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)
So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.
Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.
That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?
mmo wrote:BravoOne wrote:Well in my 55+ years I have dispatched on numerous occasions with NO ALT REQ so your comments , while perhaps spot on, do not reflect the real world, assuming I understand your position. I have been in and out of AVQ a dozen or more times but I don't recall how the flight plans were built.
In may past we did not use an alternate on many redispatch flight plans but that's another story.
Then please educate me as to what your "real world" is. If the POI and Ops Spec forbid No Alternate dispatch what do you suggest. Also we had to be dispatched under 121 specs rather than 91 for any maintenance ferry flights. Again, maybe you could educate me.
crownvic wrote:With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .
MatthewDB wrote:Jet A/A1 is quite a bit lighter than diesel fuel. Fuel oil is ranked from #1 to #6. #1 is kerosene / stove oil, #2 is common heating oil / diesel fuel, #4 is ship fuel and #6 is "bunker", almost road tar. Jet A/A1 is close to #1, with the only difference is that Jet A/A1 is "cleaner" in that it is additionally refined to remove residues. The only downside to using Jet A/A1 in a diesel engine is lower fuel economy due to the lower energy content. Engine manufacturers are OK with it, because in cold environments, #1 is used. #2 gels not much below freezing, #1 is good to -40.
Grade: Neste artic diesel -40/-44
Usage: Winter -40 °C -44 °C
CanadianNorth wrote:Where I work my understanding of the rules is any time we de-fuel an aircraft we can re-use the fuel (through a filter of course) on our own aircraft, but we cannot mix that fuel with any that we sell to others.
Since we use our fuel trucks for a variety of other customers as well as our own aircraft, we just made it standard practice to not use the fuel trucks to de-fuel, and instead we use a special cart that we built for de-fuelling. When the cart gets full we take and put the fuel in the hangar furnace tanks and heat our hangars with it.
Jet fuel, heating oil, and diesel are not exactly the same, but they are all very close, and in many cases can be used interchangeably. Furnaces won't last as long on Jet-A because it burns hotter, and truck engines sometimes need a splash of lubricant because Jet-A is dryer than road diesel, but other than that in 9 out of 10 applications it will work fine. Where I work all of our hangar furnaces and most of our diesel engine trucks and tractors are running on jet fuel, we buy enough of it for our aircraft fueling operations that it ends up being cheaper and easier than seperately buying/storing/handling heating oil and diesel.
Process is the same whether we are de-fuelling for maintenance purposes or for retired aircraft. So to answer the original question, up here when aircraft are retired the fuel is basically drained out and then used to heat any nearby hangars.
kalvado wrote:Heating seems to be an easy answer - but we're talking about aircraft sent to Arizona desert. I doubt heating would really consume too much fuel in a location which rarely sees temperatures below freezing.
SheikhDjibouti wrote:kalvado wrote:Heating seems to be an easy answer - but we're talking about aircraft sent to Arizona desert. I doubt heating would really consume too much fuel in a location which rarely sees temperatures below freezing.
No, no, no. For a start "desert" does not always mean hot (see "Atacama"), and the main requirement for an aircraft boneyard is low humidity.
Plus heating fuel could be essential for providing hot water, and after a cold, cold night under clear desert skies, nobody is going to thank you for offering them a cold shower in the morning.....
kalvado wrote:SheikhDjibouti wrote:kalvado wrote:Heating seems to be an easy answer - but we're talking about aircraft sent to Arizona desert. I doubt heating would really consume too much fuel in a location which rarely sees temperatures below freezing.
No, no, no. For a start "desert" does not always mean hot (see "Atacama"), and the main requirement for an aircraft boneyard is low humidity.
Plus heating fuel could be essential for providing hot water, and after a cold, cold night under clear desert skies, nobody is going to thank you for offering them a cold shower in the morning.....
Since conversation started with DL 744 retirement, we can pinpoint a specific location - Marana AZ.
January avearge low (night) is 40 F/ +4C, average high (day temperature) 65F/ +18C
And since we're talking about 744 and since we're talking about $10,000 worth of fuel from that single frame - and comparing that to my hot water bills - single plane should provide enough hot water for months, if not years - until they choose to setup some cozy warm baths for those retired jumbos.
SheikhDjibouti wrote:But since you are interested in numbers - where do you get $10,000 worth of fuel per frame? Is this full spec aviation fuel prices, or domestic heating oil prices? It might be more useful to convert it to gallons, and then see where we go from there.
RetiredWeasel wrote:SheikhDjibouti wrote:But since you are interested in numbers - where do you get $10,000 worth of fuel per frame? Is this full spec aviation fuel prices, or domestic heating oil prices? It might be more useful to convert it to gallons, and then see where we go from there.
Fuel on arrival of 20,000 lbs for a 747-400 is a reasonable number. That's almost 3,000 gallons. Spot Jet-A prices are upwards of $3 a gallon, but the airline probabably pays less. But still works out to about $9000 which makes kalvado pretty close.
SheikhDjibouti wrote:RetiredWeasel wrote:SheikhDjibouti wrote:But since you are interested in numbers - where do you get $10,000 worth of fuel per frame? Is this full spec aviation fuel prices, or domestic heating oil prices? It might be more useful to convert it to gallons, and then see where we go from there.
Fuel on arrival of 20,000 lbs for a 747-400 is a reasonable number. That's almost 3,000 gallons. Spot Jet-A prices are upwards of $3 a gallon, but the airline probabably pays less. But still works out to about $9000 which makes kalvado pretty close.
Ok, that's a good starting place.
I reckon to go through around 500-700 gallons of heating oil over a mild winter so that's certainly enough to keep a small household comfortable for a four years or more.
But that's only one household. And only one 747.
Around how many personnel work at the average boneyard?
Or could you hazard a guess how many man-hours does it take to strip down & process a 747? I'm guessing for every one guy swinging an axe, there are two more filling in lashings of documentation, assuming any of the parts are to be re-used; but probably a lot less paperwork if the 747 is pure scrap metal.
Okie wrote:Since we already know that an aircraft can be defueled to a tender and returned to the same companies aircraft.
Then why can't the plane that is ferried to the retirement field be defueled and the fuel returned to the companies aircraft that comes to pick up the pilots?
Okie