crownvic
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Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:03 pm

With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .
 
BravoOne
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:24 pm

Probably just defuel the airplane. No big deal other there may be restrictions on how that fuel can be used afterwards.
 
crownvic
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:52 pm

I guess I should clarify there has to be a lot of money sitting in those wings with unused fuel especially when parking a fleet of 747's over a few weeks..does the airline sell it back to a fuel handler?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:57 pm

I don't know the answer to that qaustion but comingling fuel from different sources might not be a best operation practice. There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?
 
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adanhamidu
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:06 pm

crownvic wrote:
With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .
I'm kind of thinking that since it was the last flight, Delta would have removed certain seats to reduce weight without compromising a minimum level of stability/balance as well as putting only the exact amount of fuel needed (plus a contingency amount) to get the 747 to its final resting place. Whatever little bit remains after that would be cheap (money, time, effort) for maintenance crew to remove. This is just my guess, I'm not an pilot (yet) or a flight dispatcher.

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mmo
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:42 pm

Having taken several aircraft to be stored/scrapped, the fuel that is in the tanks when you arrive stays there. The fuel load is certainly as legal as it could be, but it's not worth the expense of getting the fuel out of the tanks. You can't sell it back to the fuel company and it could only be used in another one of your airline's aircraft.
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trnswrld
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:44 pm

BravoOne wrote:
There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?

Jet A in a tractor?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 7:35 pm

mmo wrote:
Having taken several aircraft to be stored/scrapped, the fuel that is in the tanks when you arrive stays there. The fuel load is certainly as legal as it could be, but it's not worth the expense of getting the fuel out of the tanks. You can't sell it back to the fuel company and it could only be used in another one of your airline's aircraft.


Doesn't quite make sense?? Certainly would not want to start cutting up an airplane with any amount of fuel in the tanks?? I know you would and with min fuel but even that would be a few tousand pounds in a 747.

As for the tractor fuel I vase that on the fact that one of my fellow corporate pilots use to take a couple of 50 gl drums of it home to his farm. I thought he was burning it in his tractor?? Sadly he was killed last year while cutting down tree on his property.
 
Adispatcher
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:15 pm

adanhamidu wrote:
crownvic wrote:
With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .
I'm kind of thinking that since it was the last flight, Delta would have removed certain seats to reduce weight without compromising a minimum level of stability/balance as well as putting only the exact amount of fuel needed (plus a contingency amount) to get the 747 to its final resting place. Whatever little bit remains after that would be cheap (money, time, effort) for maintenance crew to remove. This is just my guess, I'm not an pilot (yet) or a flight dispatcher.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk


Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.

And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.

I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.
 
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77west
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:34 pm

trnswrld wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?

Jet A in a tractor?


JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)

So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.

Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.
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mmo
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:35 pm

BravoOne wrote:
mmo wrote:
Having taken several aircraft to be stored/scrapped, the fuel that is in the tanks when you arrive stays there. The fuel load is certainly as legal as it could be, but it's not worth the expense of getting the fuel out of the tanks. You can't sell it back to the fuel company and it could only be used in another one of your airline's aircraft.


Doesn't quite make sense?? Certainly would not want to start cutting up an airplane with any amount of fuel in the tanks?? I know you would and with min fuel but even that would be a few tousand pounds in a 747.

As for the tractor fuel I vase that on the fact that one of my fellow corporate pilots use to take a couple of 50 gl drums of it home to his farm. I thought he was burning it in his tractor?? Sadly he was killed last year while cutting down tree on his property.



But that's not the problem of the airline once the aircraft gets to it's destination. Generally, the fuel will be used to run AGE or vehicles on the ramp. What would you suggest be done with the fuel? The airline sells the aircraft, with or without engines, the salvage company will expect some fuel remaining. The fuel can not be used on any other aircraft other than the airline who was the former owner. So, you would have to defuel the aircraft, get a tanker to transport the fuel to the nearest station. Way too complicated and quite frankly not the airline's problem.

The new purchaser understands the aircraft can't have dry tanks and they will want to know how much FOB is there before you even shutdown. It's all part of the process of scrapping an aircraft.
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VSMUT
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:25 pm

As far as I am aware, "used" fuel isn't allowed to be returned for reuse in aviation due to the risk of contamination. The number of transfers fuel undergoes from refinery to reaching the aircraft is kept to a minimum for the same reason. The same goes for deicing fluids BTW.

At all of my employers, offloading fuel was something we had to pay the fueling company to do, as getting rid of the fuel or making sure that it was still aviation grade was so expensive that it would be at a cost to the fuel company.

I'm no expert on tax rules, but in Europe much aviation fuel is sold tax free. It may not even be legal for ground handling in some countries to reuse old fuel without paying taxes on it. That might not be an issue for domestic US airlines though.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:54 pm

Same in the US. Diesel has motor vehicle taxes and is dyed so that I guess whoever checks can tell taxes have been paid on it for road use. So it’s illegal to take jet a and use it as motor vehicle fuel

Same for JP-5/F-44 that has been defueled from aircraft and helos aboard ship. Although it’s not for tax purposes it’s for potential contamination issues. The defueled JP-5 goes to the ship to be used for non aviation purposes instead of back for reuse in aircraft. The ship is happy to burn JP5/F44 in the ships LM2500s, steam boilers or diesel engines instead of normal DFM/F76.

It could also be used to refuel landing craft (but not the LCAC/hovercraft) and Marine Corps ground and armored vehicles.
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77west
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:39 am

I thought some ground equipment that only operates at the airport ramp are fine to use untaxed fuel, I suppose it depends on the country. Here in NZ you can register a vehicle as a "farm" vehicle and not have to pay, as long as it never goes on public roads.
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trnswrld
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:37 am

77west wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?

Jet A in a tractor?


JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)

So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.

Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.


I did not know that, thanks for the info.
 
N415XJ
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:15 am

77west wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?

Jet A in a tractor?


JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)

So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.

Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.

That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?
 
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77west
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:11 am

N415XJ wrote:
77west wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
Jet A in a tractor?


JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)

So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.

Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.

That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?


Yes - but I don't think it would be very good for the engine, diesel has much more sulphur and other gunk in it that would probably cause issues, as well as possibly not the same freezing point and several other factors. But theoretically yes. Turbines, especially marine and power generation turbines (often derived from aero turbines) are actually often able to accept a variety of fuels.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:35 am

Some smaller turboprops can even be run on Avgas. The King Air comes to mind. There are time and performance limitations on such usage however.
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adanhamidu
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:53 am

77west wrote:
N415XJ wrote:
77west wrote:

JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)

So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.

Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.

That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?


Yes - but I don't think it would be very good for the engine, diesel has much more sulphur and other gunk in it that would probably cause issues, as well as possibly not the same freezing point and several other factors. But theoretically yes. Turbines, especially marine and power generation turbines (often derived from aero turbines) are actually often able to accept a variety of fuels.
In addition to what you just said, i so remember as a kid reading in "Encyclopedia Of World Air Power by C.J. Freeman" or so, that a few Soviet jet fighters did run on diesel. I was so surprised then that I thought the info was a grand typo-error in the book. Interesting fact though.Image

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adanhamidu
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:56 am

Adispatcher wrote:
adanhamidu wrote:
crownvic wrote:
With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .
I'm kind of thinking that since it was the last flight, Delta would have removed certain seats to reduce weight without compromising a minimum level of stability/balance as well as putting only the exact amount of fuel needed (plus a contingency amount) to get the 747 to its final resting place. Whatever little bit remains after that would be cheap (money, time, effort) for maintenance crew to remove. This is just my guess, I'm not an pilot (yet) or a flight dispatcher.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Tapatalk


Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.

And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.

I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.
That is a lot of fuel left over, even if the 747 fuel summation system says it's a little.

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crownvic
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:57 pm

So back to my original question, I guess Delta sells it off to a second party and then they do whatever with it...
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:57 pm

It gets sold as off spec fuel. Just the same as fuel that is sumped from an aircraft during a total defuel on an operational aircraft. For DL in ATL when we have to defuel for maintenance, a truck comes and pumps down the aircraft. That fuel can go back into any DL aircraft. There is always some left after the pump down. That fuel is drained from the sumps and sent to a storage tank at the hangar. It gets burned in the buildings heating system and the compressors that make compressed air for the hangar and shops.

Off spec fuel from a scrapped or stored aircraft can be sold as off road vehicle fuel or can be burned for heat or electric generation for industry. Like others have said Jet A is pretty close to Diesel and also home heating oil.
 
kalvado
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:06 pm

77west wrote:
N415XJ wrote:
77west wrote:

JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)

So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.

Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.

That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?


Yes - but I don't think it would be very good for the engine, diesel has much more sulphur and other gunk in it that would probably cause issues, as well as possibly not the same freezing point and several other factors. But theoretically yes. Turbines, especially marine and power generation turbines (often derived from aero turbines) are actually often able to accept a variety of fuels.

Actually there is LESS sulphur in vehicular diesel.
Current diesel spec is 15 ppm, and ASTM D1655 for Jet-A is 30 ppm.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:51 pm

Adispatcher wrote:
adanhamidu wrote:

Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.

And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.

I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.


These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.
 
mmo
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:33 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Adispatcher wrote:
adanhamidu wrote:

Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.

And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.

I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.


These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.


In theory, what you say is true. However, at NW, the PIO insisted all operations were conducted under 121 rules, just like a normal operation. Our engine out ferries, for example, had to have a dry runway and be VFR. But those were internal restrictions. At the time, UA, also did their engine out ferries under 121 rules. It really makes sense. If anything goes wrong and you would have been better off under 121, you will surely get roasted by the FAA, and the POI will be certainly called on the carpet. It's nothing more than CYA....
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mmo
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:34 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Adispatcher wrote:
adanhamidu wrote:

Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.

And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.

I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.


These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.


In theory, what you say is true. However, at NW, the PIO insisted all operations were conducted under 121 rules, just like a normal operation. Our engine out ferries, for example, had to have a dry runway and be VFR. But those were internal restrictions. At the time, UA, also did their engine out ferries under 121 rules. It really makes sense. If anything goes wrong and you would have been better off under 121, you will surely get roasted by the FAA, and the POI will be certainly called on the carpet. It's nothing more than CYA....
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:01 pm

mmo wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Adispatcher wrote:


These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.


In theory, what you say is true. However, at NW, the PIO insisted all operations were conducted under 121 rules, just like a normal operation. Our engine out ferries, for example, had to have a dry runway and be VFR. But those were internal restrictions. At the time, UA, also did their engine out ferries under 121 rules. It really makes sense. If anything goes wrong and you would have been better off under 121, you will surely get roasted by the FAA, and the POI will be certainly called on the carpet. It's nothing more than CYA....


I believe you can dispatch No Alt Required under Part 121 as well. Keep in mind the weather is good 350 days out of year in this part of he world.
 
MatthewDB
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:01 am

77west wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?

Jet A in a tractor?


JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)

So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.

Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.


Jet A/A1 is quite a bit lighter than diesel fuel. Fuel oil is ranked from #1 to #6. #1 is kerosene / stove oil, #2 is common heating oil / diesel fuel, #4 is ship fuel and #6 is "bunker", almost road tar. Jet A/A1 is close to #1, with the only difference is that Jet A/A1 is "cleaner" in that it is additionally refined to remove residues. The only downside to using Jet A/A1 in a diesel engine is lower fuel economy due to the lower energy content. Engine manufacturers are OK with it, because in cold environments, #1 is used. #2 gels not much below freezing, #1 is good to -40.
 
Adispatcher
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:47 am

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Adispatcher wrote:
adanhamidu wrote:

Nope. Stock aircraft. No idea what happens to all the gas, though.

And since Marana is probably not in their C070 and a supplemental operation, it will likely have an alternate on the flight plan. Domestic fuel reserves, an alternate, and a little bit of contingency adds up on such a big bird.

I could see it landing with 25,000-30,000 pounds of gas.


These flights that operate under FAA rules to move planes to desert are usually not conducted under Part 121 rules. They are usually under Part 91 rules. So Part 91 alternate requirements would be in effect. Depending on the weather, you can go alternate none on a Part 91 operation. Supplemental ops are usually for charter flights and planes moving to the desert are generally not charters.


Certainly. Some airlines have restrictions/exemptions when conducting operations to non-C070 airports with zero approaches and/or a single runway. Mine certainly does.
 
mmo
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:51 am

BravoOne wrote:

I believe you can dispatch No Alt Required under Part 121 as well. Keep in mind the weather is good 350 days out of year in this part of he world.


Yes you can dispatch like that, but you need more fuel. If the aircraft is going to KAVQ (Marana), you can use KTUS and save fuel. In my 30+ years of commercial flying, I can't remember being dispatched like that. It's just not worth the risk if something unexpected were to happen. IIRC, at my first carrier, the OPS Spec prohibited that practice.
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BravoOne
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:41 am

Well in my 55+ years I have dispatched on numerous occasions with NO ALT REQ so your comments , while perhaps spot on, do not reflect the real world, assuming I understand your position. I have been in and out of AVQ a dozen or more times but I don't recall how the flight plans were built.

In may past we did not use an alternate on many redispatch flight plans but that's another story.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:42 am

Well in my 55+ years I have dispatched on numerous occasions with NO ALT REQ so your comments , while perhaps spot on, do not reflect the real world, assuming I understand your position. I have been in and out of AVQ a dozen or more times but I don't recall how the flight plans were built.

In may past we did not use an alternate on many redispatch flight plans but that's another story.
 
mmo
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:30 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Well in my 55+ years I have dispatched on numerous occasions with NO ALT REQ so your comments , while perhaps spot on, do not reflect the real world, assuming I understand your position. I have been in and out of AVQ a dozen or more times but I don't recall how the flight plans were built.

In may past we did not use an alternate on many redispatch flight plans but that's another story.


Then please educate me as to what your "real world" is. If the POI and Ops Spec forbid No Alternate dispatch what do you suggest. Also we had to be dispatched under 121 specs rather than 91 for any maintenance ferry flights. Again, maybe you could educate me.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:06 pm

I realise that Jet-A isn't exactly the same as JP-8 but.....
For logistical reasons, JP-8 is the US military's universal fuel powering both aircraft and vehicle fleets.

JP-8 (for "Jet Propellant 8") a kerosene-based fuel, is used by the United States military as a replacement in diesel fueled vehicles and for powering aircraft. JP-8 is also used by the U.S. military and its NATO allies as a fuel for heaters, stoves, tanks and as a replacement for diesel fuel in the engines of nearly all tactical ground vehicles and electrical generators.


I used to run a Land Rover Discovery 2.5 TD on standard cooking oil, without any modification to the engine whatsoever. Totally illegal, but great fun when you drove past a queue at a bus stop, and everybody looked around to see who was enjoying a portion of fish 'n chips. :lol:
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Semaex
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:50 pm

mmo wrote:
Having taken several aircraft to be stored/scrapped, the fuel that is in the tanks when you arrive stays there. The fuel load is certainly as legal as it could be, but it's not worth the expense of getting the fuel out of the tanks. You can't sell it back to the fuel company and it could only be used in another one of your airline's aircraft.


So when scrapping the aircraft, a lot of spillage will occur? My uneducated guess.


trnswrld wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
There are other uses for this that do not involve the safety of flight issue. I seem to recall seeing this kind of fuel used in tractors or other farm machinery?

Jet A in a tractor?


Why not. It's practically the same as Diesel.
In fact, you could easily run a Diesel powered car with Jet A-1. The problem in some/most countries however is that automotive Diesel is taxed higher than Kerosine. So if you were to fuel your tractor with Jet A-1, you're basically doing tax-evation. Hence also the colouring of different fuel types. So that, in the most unlikely of cases, proof exists of what type of fuel is in your tank.


N415XJ wrote:
77west wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
Jet A in a tractor?


JET A / A1 are very similar to normal automotive diesel, so much so that many airport vehicles run on Jet A with a lubricity additive (as diesel has better lubricating abilities than Jet)

So a diesel tractor would run fine on Jet.

Don't try it in a petrol / gasoline engine however.

That gets me thinking.... would it theoretically be possible to run a jet on automotive diesel?


Ask the guys from Diamond Aircraft in Wiener Neustadt. They built, together with Austro Engines, a piston engine that runs on Jet A-1 and Diesel alike.
Google Diamand DA-42 ;)
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:17 pm

mmo wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Well in my 55+ years I have dispatched on numerous occasions with NO ALT REQ so your comments , while perhaps spot on, do not reflect the real world, assuming I understand your position. I have been in and out of AVQ a dozen or more times but I don't recall how the flight plans were built.

In may past we did not use an alternate on many redispatch flight plans but that's another story.


Then please educate me as to what your "real world" is. If the POI and Ops Spec forbid No Alternate dispatch what do you suggest. Also we had to be dispatched under 121 specs rather than 91 for any maintenance ferry flights. Again, maybe you could educate me.



I doubt that I could add much to your knowledge base. Many flights under Part 121 are dispatched with NO ALTN REQ, and you have mentioned this would be reflected in the individual OpSpecs
 
strfyr51
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:23 pm

crownvic wrote:
With the last Delta 747 parked, it got me to thinking....what happens to the thousands of gallons of unused fuel when say a 747 is parked for the last time. Does Delta empty it out, load it on a tanker truck and take it to a fuel farm?? Does someone buy it off of them and offload it???? That has to add up .

Because of the corrosion additives in the fuel it usually cannot be re-sold. If it's bonded fuel ? It definitely cannot be resold SO? when the aircraft is swfueled it gets uswd for Diesel fuel for diesel powered tractors or diesel ground equipment.
 
boerje
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:33 am

MatthewDB wrote:
Jet A/A1 is quite a bit lighter than diesel fuel. Fuel oil is ranked from #1 to #6. #1 is kerosene / stove oil, #2 is common heating oil / diesel fuel, #4 is ship fuel and #6 is "bunker", almost road tar. Jet A/A1 is close to #1, with the only difference is that Jet A/A1 is "cleaner" in that it is additionally refined to remove residues. The only downside to using Jet A/A1 in a diesel engine is lower fuel economy due to the lower energy content. Engine manufacturers are OK with it, because in cold environments, #1 is used. #2 gels not much below freezing, #1 is good to -40.


So Jet A would then be similar to arctic diesel we use up North in Finland when it gets really cold during winter time?

Grade: Neste artic diesel -40/-44
Usage: Winter -40 °C -44 °C


https://www.neste.com/en/companies/products/fuels/arctic-fuels
 
TheSonntag
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:59 pm

The Thielert 1.7 / 2.0 engine (now Continental Diesel) is a Mercedes Benz car Diesel engine modified for aviation use on the Cessna 172. It can use Diesel and Jet A, but was a bit modified for Jet-A.

Generally, modern Diesel engines are using 2000bar common rail injection Systems with very tight tolerances. So they demand Quality fuel with additives. This Quality is a bit different from what is demanded for Jet-A1.
 
CanadianNorth
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:48 pm

Where I work my understanding of the rules is any time we de-fuel an aircraft we can re-use the fuel (through a filter of course) on our own aircraft, but we cannot mix that fuel with any that we sell to others.

Since we use our fuel trucks for a variety of other customers as well as our own aircraft, we just made it standard practice to not use the fuel trucks to de-fuel, and instead we use a special cart that we built for de-fuelling. When the cart gets full we take and put the fuel in the hangar furnace tanks and heat our hangars with it.

Jet fuel, heating oil, and diesel are not exactly the same, but they are all very close, and in many cases can be used interchangeably. Furnaces won't last as long on Jet-A because it burns hotter, and truck engines sometimes need a splash of lubricant because Jet-A is dryer than road diesel, but other than that in 9 out of 10 applications it will work fine. Where I work all of our hangar furnaces and most of our diesel engine trucks and tractors are running on jet fuel, we buy enough of it for our aircraft fueling operations that it ends up being cheaper and easier than seperately buying/storing/handling heating oil and diesel.

Process is the same whether we are de-fuelling for maintenance purposes or for retired aircraft. So to answer the original question, up here when aircraft are retired the fuel is basically drained out and then used to heat any nearby hangars.
HS-748, just like a 747 but better!
 
kalvado
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:33 pm

CanadianNorth wrote:
Where I work my understanding of the rules is any time we de-fuel an aircraft we can re-use the fuel (through a filter of course) on our own aircraft, but we cannot mix that fuel with any that we sell to others.

Since we use our fuel trucks for a variety of other customers as well as our own aircraft, we just made it standard practice to not use the fuel trucks to de-fuel, and instead we use a special cart that we built for de-fuelling. When the cart gets full we take and put the fuel in the hangar furnace tanks and heat our hangars with it.

Jet fuel, heating oil, and diesel are not exactly the same, but they are all very close, and in many cases can be used interchangeably. Furnaces won't last as long on Jet-A because it burns hotter, and truck engines sometimes need a splash of lubricant because Jet-A is dryer than road diesel, but other than that in 9 out of 10 applications it will work fine. Where I work all of our hangar furnaces and most of our diesel engine trucks and tractors are running on jet fuel, we buy enough of it for our aircraft fueling operations that it ends up being cheaper and easier than seperately buying/storing/handling heating oil and diesel.

Process is the same whether we are de-fuelling for maintenance purposes or for retired aircraft. So to answer the original question, up here when aircraft are retired the fuel is basically drained out and then used to heat any nearby hangars.


Heating seems to be an easy answer - but we're talking about aircraft sent to Arizona desert. I doubt heating would really consume too much fuel in a location which rarely sees temperatures below freezing.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:22 pm

kalvado wrote:
Heating seems to be an easy answer - but we're talking about aircraft sent to Arizona desert. I doubt heating would really consume too much fuel in a location which rarely sees temperatures below freezing.

No, no, no. For a start "desert" does not always mean hot (see "Atacama"), and the main requirement for an aircraft boneyard is low humidity.

Plus heating fuel could be essential for providing hot water, and after a cold, cold night under clear desert skies, nobody is going to thank you for offering them a cold shower in the morning.....
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
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kalvado
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:56 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Heating seems to be an easy answer - but we're talking about aircraft sent to Arizona desert. I doubt heating would really consume too much fuel in a location which rarely sees temperatures below freezing.

No, no, no. For a start "desert" does not always mean hot (see "Atacama"), and the main requirement for an aircraft boneyard is low humidity.

Plus heating fuel could be essential for providing hot water, and after a cold, cold night under clear desert skies, nobody is going to thank you for offering them a cold shower in the morning.....

Since conversation started with DL 744 retirement, we can pinpoint a specific location - Marana AZ.
January avearge low (night) is 40 F/ +4C, average high (day temperature) 65F/ +18C
And since we're talking about 744 and since we're talking about $10,000 worth of fuel from that single frame - and comparing that to my hot water bills - single plane should provide enough hot water for months, if not years - until they choose to setup some cozy warm baths for those retired jumbos.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:44 pm

kalvado wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Heating seems to be an easy answer - but we're talking about aircraft sent to Arizona desert. I doubt heating would really consume too much fuel in a location which rarely sees temperatures below freezing.

No, no, no. For a start "desert" does not always mean hot (see "Atacama"), and the main requirement for an aircraft boneyard is low humidity.

Plus heating fuel could be essential for providing hot water, and after a cold, cold night under clear desert skies, nobody is going to thank you for offering them a cold shower in the morning.....

Since conversation started with DL 744 retirement, we can pinpoint a specific location - Marana AZ.
January avearge low (night) is 40 F/ +4C, average high (day temperature) 65F/ +18C
And since we're talking about 744 and since we're talking about $10,000 worth of fuel from that single frame - and comparing that to my hot water bills - single plane should provide enough hot water for months, if not years - until they choose to setup some cozy warm baths for those retired jumbos.

I was simply reminding people that "heating oil" provides more than just heating.
But since you are interested in numbers - where do you get $10,000 worth of fuel per frame? Is this full spec aviation fuel prices, or domestic heating oil prices? It might be more useful to convert it to gallons, and then see where we go from there.

And whilst I like the idea of cozy warm baths for retired jumbos, have you considered those big draughty hangars where the bits 'n pieces are stored? The average domestic heating system wouldn't come close. My local repair shop uses a device called a space-heater, and they are known to be very thirsty devices. You must have seen them; they even look a little bit like a jet engine. :lol:

Here ya go, except this one is only a babe.
https://azpatioheaters.com/Diesel-shop-heater.html
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
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RetiredWeasel
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:48 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
But since you are interested in numbers - where do you get $10,000 worth of fuel per frame? Is this full spec aviation fuel prices, or domestic heating oil prices? It might be more useful to convert it to gallons, and then see where we go from there.


Fuel on arrival of 20,000 lbs for a 747-400 is a reasonable number. That's almost 3,000 gallons. Spot Jet-A prices are upwards of $3 a gallon, but the airline probabably pays less. But still works out to about $9000 which makes kalvado pretty close.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:30 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
But since you are interested in numbers - where do you get $10,000 worth of fuel per frame? Is this full spec aviation fuel prices, or domestic heating oil prices? It might be more useful to convert it to gallons, and then see where we go from there.


Fuel on arrival of 20,000 lbs for a 747-400 is a reasonable number. That's almost 3,000 gallons. Spot Jet-A prices are upwards of $3 a gallon, but the airline probabably pays less. But still works out to about $9000 which makes kalvado pretty close.

Ok, that's a good starting place.
I reckon to go through around 500-700 gallons of heating oil over a mild winter so that's certainly enough to keep a small household comfortable for a four years or more.
But that's only one household. And only one 747.

Around how many personnel work at the average boneyard?

Or could you hazard a guess how many man-hours does it take to strip down & process a 747? I'm guessing for every one guy swinging an axe, there are two more filling in lashings of documentation, assuming any of the parts are to be re-used; but probably a lot less paperwork if the 747 is pure scrap metal.
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
kalvado
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:42 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
But since you are interested in numbers - where do you get $10,000 worth of fuel per frame? Is this full spec aviation fuel prices, or domestic heating oil prices? It might be more useful to convert it to gallons, and then see where we go from there.


Fuel on arrival of 20,000 lbs for a 747-400 is a reasonable number. That's almost 3,000 gallons. Spot Jet-A prices are upwards of $3 a gallon, but the airline probabably pays less. But still works out to about $9000 which makes kalvado pretty close.

Ok, that's a good starting place.
I reckon to go through around 500-700 gallons of heating oil over a mild winter so that's certainly enough to keep a small household comfortable for a four years or more.
But that's only one household. And only one 747.

Around how many personnel work at the average boneyard?

Or could you hazard a guess how many man-hours does it take to strip down & process a 747? I'm guessing for every one guy swinging an axe, there are two more filling in lashings of documentation, assuming any of the parts are to be re-used; but probably a lot less paperwork if the 747 is pure scrap metal.

That would explain their AC bills. Can AC run on Jet-A?
FOr reference - climate summary for Marana AZ: http://www.intellicast.com/local/histor ... n=USAZ0129
Nights are colder, but they may need to fire up AC next week.
 
bhill
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:14 pm

Smudge pots.....lotsa lotsa smudge pots.....
Carpe Pices
 
Okie
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:38 pm

Since we already know that an aircraft can be defueled to a tender and returned to the same companies aircraft.
Then why can't the plane that is ferried to the retirement field be defueled and the fuel returned to the companies aircraft that comes to pick up the pilots?


Okie
 
mmo
Posts: 1527
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Re: Last Flight..Retired Aircraft...Fuel Question

Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:56 pm

Okie wrote:
Since we already know that an aircraft can be defueled to a tender and returned to the same companies aircraft.
Then why can't the plane that is ferried to the retirement field be defueled and the fuel returned to the companies aircraft that comes to pick up the pilots?


Okie


First of all, there is no service to quite a few fields where the aircraft is parked. I took several aircraft to AVW and we either got transport to PHX or TUS, spent the night at a hotel then DH out the next day. Going to be tough to get the fuel to an out station. In addition, look at the cost of getting a fuel bowser to transport the fuel. All the excess fuel which is left in the tanks is all part of the "deal". It's not a big deal, it's something the company which is parting out the aircraft has to deal with.
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