Not sure where I should post this, so here goes. This is what I heard not long ago on liveatc.net at about 1:53pm YUL time. I'm not trying to speculate about safety, but since I began listening to ATC communications, I've never heard anything alike, hence my question.


- Montreal terminal, good day. This is Air Canada 8 7 1 heavy, we are leaving 16k feet for 8k feet with uniform (not sure about the last word)
- Air Canada 8 7 1 heavy, terminal good afternoon. Six left, altimeter 2 9 6 0. There's a wind from the south 15 to 20 knots at 3000 feet.
- We are checking, 2 9 6 0, Air Canada 8 7 1. How is Nicole doing?
- Very well and you?
- Very well. (Then, five seconds later) Be nice with the 8 2 9 that's following us. It's my brother.
- Oh, okay, very well.
- Thanks.
- Just because you asked for it.
- That's it.
- (She laughs)
- (Pilot says something)
- (She laughs again)

Then, 3 minutes 30 later:

- Good day Nicole, this is Air Canada 8 2 9 heavy, (Says something) descending 8000 feet.
- Air Canada 8 1 9 heavy, how are you doing ? Six left, uniform, and the altimeter 2 9 5 9.
- Six left, uniform, 2 9 5 9 Air Canada 8 2 9. Btw Nicole, be kind with the others...
- Alright, alright (with a bemused tone)

All that was said in French.

i don't think there's an ICAO-type regulation for occasional banter on the radio, especially if its not busy. United used to have Channel 9 on all its planes - LIVE ATC - and during ball games (before the days of inflight wifi), controllers would relay scores and what not. The above banter has me thinking the pilots know the controller (Nicole?), which is common in smaller environments/cities.

Up here in Alaska, sometimes you'll hear people ask float planes about game/fishing reports, but that's about it. Or northern lights.

I think the rule is below 10000 feet the cockpit "must be sterile", so no erm... side chatter or whatever you call it.

I’m in ATC and I’m not aware of any actual rules against it, but yeah from time to time you get someone on freq that you know, or a pilot asking for some score, or I have even heard pilots that know each other say a few things. As a controller I really don’t care as long as it doesn’t mess up the operation. As far as safety, I can assure you no unnecessary conversations go on during a busy period. Pilots know better and ATC would simply be putting themselves down the tubes by doing that. Nothing to worry about whatsoever. Someone would have to dig into the 7110.65 or the aim to see about any actual rules or regulations on this.

Depends on the time of the day and the location. I know side chats aren't uncommon between transpac flights late at night.

As has been said above, I don't know of any specific regulation regarding personal banter on frequency. It all depends on how busy the frequency is. As Pilot, the trick when tuning into a new frequency is to listen for a minute and gauge how busy the controller is. If you feel you know the controller or want a ball score, ask then. Just out of college, I was a Flight Instructor at at a rather small airport. I'd visit the tower at least once a week, usually with a student in tow. I knew their voices and they knew mine. Sometimes, they would even say "Cleared for takeoff, Dave" This was forty years ago, mind you.

I never did such a thing while flying, but I know this happens, but it also depends on the location, I was on the jump seat from Venice to Madrid and the controller told the Captain to wish someone who is in the plane a Happy Wedding Anniversary. Like it was a proper conversation something like

ATC - IBERIA 25 (or whatever) can you do a favour for me?
Captain - Yes, go ahead
ATC - There is a passenger named *her name* on your aircraft, can you wish her a wedding anniversary
Captain - Sure, Will do
ATC - Please tell her that this is *his name* from the control tower

But well whenever I fly, I never did such a thing nor any of the FO's did such a thing who I flew with. The most I say is "Have a Good Day, Bye Bye"

For flight deck crew, below 10,000 feet, no extraneous chatter (by statute), and for both ATCOs and pilots, advisory guidance and common sense says when radio traffic is high, stick to ops.

CarlosSi wrote:

I think the rule is below 10000 feet the cockpit "must be sterile", so no erm... side chatter or whatever you call it.

That's only for the cockpit. I've had pilots ask questions about things in the area or just talk down to the last mile on final. This goes from cessna pilots up to 747's.

CarlosSi wrote:

I think the rule is below 10000 feet the cockpit "must be sterile", so no erm... side chatter or whatever you call it.

I think that you're not an airline pilot and have never been up front. Sterile cockpit rules don't prohibit us from adding in a hello or greeting with a controller. They, after all, are vectoring us through the skies, and at some airports, we can actually get to know some of them.

As others have stated, it all depends on how busy the air traffic controller is. You can be darn sure I am not going to ask a Chicago Center controller a football score at 1700 on a weekday, but at 0200 when FedEx, UPS, and DHL are flying, it might be acceptable to ask a non-routine question.

On the HKG (VHHH) frequency at night, very occasionally you'll hear a controller ask "is that <name>?" With a response that it is, and only a pleasant greeting back and forth. Or my favorite when they ask a company to leave room for its fellow jet to taxi through, there would be either fake snark or a single comment. The other ones I like are when the plane does not follow directions and then getting scolded by the controller and having to grovel the rest of the way down Hotel or Juliet.

hz747300 wrote:

The other ones I like are when the plane does not follow directions and then getting scolded by the controller and having to grovel the rest of the way down Hotel or Juliet.

That controller in HKG has retired.

As for more general “guidance” there is nothing that actually prohibits such transmissions, common sense should prevail ( ie not in critical phases, and when the frequency is quiet.)

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

All that was said in French.

Nothing else in the transcript sounds unusual or inappropriate...but this is actually a violation.

I'm sure actual regulations vary by country — that's not something ICAO would get involved in. In the US, the 7110.65 paragraph 2-4-5 Authorized Transmissions is the major applicable paragraph to this. It says that a controller should only transmit messages necessary for air traffic control or otherwise contributing to safety.

However, that is intentionally vague, as are a number of things in the 7110.65. Controllers are expected to use their best judgement, so obviously engaging in any behavior which might conflict with 2-4-5 or otherwise compromise a safe operation would not be good judgement.

However, if traffic volume is light, and no special conditions or considerations exist, then provided any exchanges are appropriate and are not in any way a detriment to providing ATC service, then certainly no one would be busted for it. We aren't robots, and nobody expects us to be, so provided we're exercising good judgement, then generally no one gets upset. Obviously it helps if the exchange is somewhat related to the operation (answering questions, discussing a filed route, etc.), but brief unrelated remarks aren't a big deal at the appropriate time.

Aviation is a surprisingly small community, and many pilots and controllers know each other (at least by voice), so saying "hello" on frequency is fine assuming it won't be a detriment to anyone's job.

Plenty. We are all humans. Most times it is a simple hello or goodbye but you are allowed to talk. Most times you will hear “do you have time for a question”. One thing to remember is pilots and ATC are pretty professional they know when and when not to talk, just like in the cockpit.

Back in my JetStar flying days our secretary/dispatcher’s husband was an Air Traffic Controller who worked in the NY Tracon, usually working arrivals, so it was not uncommon for us to hold a little conversation with him whenever he handled us when we were returning to HPN.

One time when he was working Tracon I took his wife up for a sightseeing flight in my Cessna 150 flying down the Hudson River to the Statue of Liberty and back flying through the NY Control Zone and you could not believe the service he provided. She called him and left a message giving him my “N” number and flight details so he passed the word around to the other controllers that was his wife on board and from the time I taxied out till the time I landed I was given exceptional service and notifications of other aircraft in the area, he even vectored a helicopter who was faster around us when we are on his frequency.

Ah the good old days.

JetStar

IPFreely wrote:

Nothing else in the transcript sounds unusual or inappropriate...but this is actually a violation.

No, French is one of the official ICAO aviation languages. Often in Canada the ATIS is even in
French and English. Aviation documents in Canada (including licences and medical) are in French and English. I understand that Air Canada is also required to produce dual language FCOMS.

Fly in China, they speak mainly mandarin to local carriers and “English” to the rest, Russian in Russia, French in France, and they do similar in Spanish speaking countries.

I was doing contract work for an airline down in South America. the hold music for the office & reservations was the local control tower (semi-busy airport with plenty of foreign-flags). The controllers used mostly all spanish until someone non-latin called in, ie KLM, Air Canada, etc. At that point, ALL communications were in English until they passed over to another frequency.

Sterile cockpit rules are meant only to keep the pilots focused on flying, but it doesn't necessarily prohibit the above conversation in Canada.

I remember when I flew with Kingfisher from Kolkata to Mumbai 2007, the Captain updated us on the cricket match between India and Pakistan. Surely there was an extra bit of talking on ATC. (India won, if anyone's wondering ).

Besides, we students are supposed to be concise and clear with our ATC calls here in UND, but the odd chit-chatter is not uncommon. And ATC is dealing with, like I said, students. So there is always that extra added pressure.

CA

By regulation unneeded talk is not permitted, but practically a word or two of a greeting to someone known is done as long as its not jamming the frequency.

Best exemple is to listen YouTube ATC recording of "Kennedy Steve"! The funniest controller I ever heard.
To bad he retired recently

Thank you all for your inputs.

IPFreely wrote:

Nothing else in the transcript sounds unusual or inappropriate...but this is actually a violation.

Well, if you listen to the ATC at YUL, you'll hear French used everyday. It's the pilots that announce their flights in French.

airtran737 wrote:

CarlosSi wrote:

I think the rule is below 10000 feet the cockpit "must be sterile", so no erm... side chatter or whatever you call it.

I think that you're not an airline pilot and have never been up front. Sterile cockpit rules don't prohibit us from adding in a hello or greeting with a controller. They, after all, are vectoring us through the skies, and at some airports, we can actually get to know some of them.

As others have stated, it all depends on how busy the air traffic controller is. You can be darn sure I am not going to ask a Chicago Center controller a football score at 1700 on a weekday, but at 0200 when FedEx, UPS, and DHL are flying, it might be acceptable to ask a non-routine question.

Not at all, seems like “sterile cockpit” is not what I think it means.

zeke wrote:

No, French is one of the official ICAO aviation languages.

Isn't this rule going even more forward? I believe in Poland you're free to use local language. However, you must consider, that when either one of sides is unable to use local language, or prefers english for whatever reason (usually the ATC switches to english to keep the "inform" function), they both switch to english.

I thought it is sort of "standard behavior"? Local allowed, but never preferred?

Cheers,
Adam

Here in Miami there is an Air Traffic Controller in the MIA tower that says hello and goodbye in Spanish/Portuguese to pilots of South American airlines during slow times during the day and evening.

Meh back in the day you never checked in with Van Nuys without saying "g'mornin' Phil..."

Per the ICAO's Air Navigation Bureau on the topic of language proficiency:

Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

Obviously though there are restrictions within this:

...the language provisions adopted in November 2003 reinforce the case for the use of standardized phraseology (See Annex 10, Volume II, paragraph 5.1.1.1). Pilots and controllers shall use ICAO standardized phraseology in all situations for which it has been specified and resort to plain language in radiotelephony communications only when standardized phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission.

Restrictions beyond this, such as freedom to use local languages and the amount of "off-topic" chatter permitted, will be set by national authorities responsible for air navigation.

zeke wrote:

No, French is one of the official ICAO aviation languages. Often in Canada the ATIS is even in French and English. Aviation documents in Canada (including licences and medical) are in French and English. I understand that Air Canada is also required to produce dual language FCOMS.

This will be because French is an official language of Canada, and its use in equal standing to English is mandated in many fields by law. French as a language of the ICAO is inherited from its position as an official language of the UN, alongside Modern Standard Arabic, British English, Mandarin (with Simplified characters), Russian, and Spanish.

Similarly, it is the ICAO who co-ordinate many of the specifications for passports and other such travel documents, and they currently recommend that they be issued in English and, carried over from the 1920 League of Nations recommendations, French, or alternately in the national language/s of the issuing country and one of or both English and French.