jc.n
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Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:36 am

landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:45 pm

Just had a beautiful smooth landing on a MEA A330 only with slats, no flaps set.
What is the background of this procedure? What are the benefits? Is this unique
for the A330?
Thank you for your explanation.
Jan
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:27 am

I don't know the -200, but the -300 we can do Flap 3 or Flap Full landings (the -200 is probably the same). A no flap landing would imply a malfunction of the flaps.

(I did a reality check in the FCOM and it doesn't mention any normal landing flaps except 3 and FULL. But I suppose there could be something I missed.)

In general, the benefit of less flap is better go-around performance. However approach speeds are higher.
Last edited by Starlionblue on Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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maortega15
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:36 am

zeke is the best guy by far for this kind of question. Where is he when you need him?! :biggrin:
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:44 pm

Sounds like a Non-normal landing due a trailing edge flap drive failure as Starlionblue says.

You'll probably find this as a standard Non-normal landing procedure for all Air Transport category aircraft.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
WYLTK
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:24 pm

Sure you aren't simply mistaken? (it happens) More info needed.... flight number and date. Approach data and physics will detail the rest.
 
Redbellyguppy
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:28 pm

I bet the approach speed was pretty hot...
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:48 pm

Vref +40 would probably be about right.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
sanjet
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:59 pm

This is a video of a A330 doing a flapless landing. It can be a quite a firm landing with the requirement of firm braking due to high landing speed. I highly doubt yours was flapless as it would be considered abnormal.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jTO70R2uzI
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zeke
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:36 am

jc.n wrote:
Just had a beautiful smooth landing on a MEA A330 only with slats, no flaps set.
What is the background of this procedure?
Jan


There is no normal procedure for a flapless landing on a A330. The abnormal landing configuration is required for some dual hydraulic failures and/or if the flaps are locked. I think most passengers would not be able to tell the difference between Flaps 0 or Flaps 1+F.

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Vref +40 would probably be about right.


+30 and a landing distance of around 5800 ft at MLW, for Flaps 1+F it’s only +15 and about 5000’.

sanjet wrote:
It can be a quite a firm landing with the requirement of firm braking due to high landing speed.


No need for the landing to be firm, the elevator effectiveness is very good with the higher approach speed.

However you can have a firmer landing as the rate of descent is 100-200 fpm higher, if no anticipation is made it will result in a firmer landing. Also the attitude is higher meaning the pilots eye height is higher above the runway, if the flare is made at the normal eye height you will bury the landing gear.

In reality a smaller flare (more effective elevator) executed around 10’ higher than normal will result in a nice result.
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thepinkmachine
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:17 am

Then you also have to mind the tail clearance, which may by quite lower at abnormal config. While I wouldn't aim for firm landing per se, I'd definitely limit pitch change of flare...
 
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zeke
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:14 am

Still a very good margin, the attitude will be between 6 and 8.5 degrees, and the tail strike pitch limit on the -200 is 15.5 degrees.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am

zeke wrote:
Still a very good margin, the attitude will be between 6 and 8.5 degrees, and the tail strike pitch limit on the -200 is 15.5 degrees.


True, on the -200 that would be less of an issue. On the -300 OTOH, that would be too close for comfort...
 
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zeke
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Re: landing without flaps (only slats) on A330

Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:43 am

It is only 1.5 degrees less on the -300, 14 degrees still provides a good margin.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News

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