ConcordeAlpha
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Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:16 am

Hi all,

Recently I have purchased the new 747-400 from PMDG to use in my simulator P3D. I have spent the last few days studying the aicraft, and one thing that interested me the most was when to apply fuel when starting the engines. I have heard you first have to turn on the ignition switches, and then straight after doing so, you apply fuel. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:38 am

First you pull out the start switches of the engines you want to start. This opens the start valve and the engine bleed valve. You wait till the N2 reaches it's max rotation (min of 15%) then position the fuel control switch to "run". This supplies the fuel. Monitor the engine instruments until they are stabilized. This procedure assumes you're using the APU for start air. The start switches automatically pop back in when 50% N2 is reached. Hope this helps.

And I didn't draw on my memory, but actually looked it up because in my old age 200 procedures sometimes blend in with the 400 procedures.
 
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77west
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:19 am

It depends if fitted with autostart or not. It is all in the provided manuals... with the product you bought...
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
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CARST
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:06 am

Download my PMDG 747-400 checklist, it will teach you the whole process:

http://carstenrau.de/flight-simulator-checklists/

It's more of a flow procedure, than a checklist, but it will help you from a cold & dark cockpit via engine start, flight computer programming, etc and through the whole flight.
 
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SaveFerris
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:19 pm

77west wrote:
It depends if fitted with autostart or not. It is all in the provided manuals... with the product you bought...


This is correct, not sure how accurate the flight sim version is but in the real airplane the Autostart is selected on or off via a switch on the overhead panel. Unless it is deferred we use Autostart as it easier as well as protects against most start malfunctions. If using Autostart you simply pull the Start Valve selector out and then move the Fuel Cutoff to Run, the computer does the rest. With Autostart off you will get a line on the N2 indicator on the lower EICAS which indicates the minimum N2 at which you should introduce fuel. In this case you pull the Start Valve and wait until N2 reaches said line (or preferably max dry motoring N2) and then move the Fuel Cutoff selector to Run. Hopefully this helps!
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:33 pm

SaveFerris wrote:
77west wrote:
It depends if fitted with autostart or not. It is all in the provided manuals... with the product you bought...


This is correct, not sure how accurate the flight sim version is but in the real airplane the Autostart is selected on or off via a switch on the overhead panel. Unless it is deferred we use Autostart as it easier as well as protects against most start malfunctions. If using Autostart you simply pull the Start Valve selector out and then move the Fuel Cutoff to Run, the computer does the rest. With Autostart off you will get a line on the N2 indicator on the lower EICAS which indicates the minimum N2 at which you should introduce fuel. In this case you pull the Start Valve and wait until N2 reaches said line (or preferably max dry motoring N2) and then move the Fuel Cutoff selector to Run. Hopefully this helps!


Silly me. I was using the procedure we used for years at the red tails and presumably the couple of remaining 400s at Delta. I don't remember any autostart feature in those birds and it isn't in the manual but maybe I missed something. I don't know anything about the computer flight sims.
 
Lpbri
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:35 pm

I don't think on a 747-400 you can start 2 at a time.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:23 pm

Lpbri wrote:
I don't think on a 747-400 you can start 2 at a time.

Normally you would. And normally at my ex airline you would start 3 and 4 at the same time then 1 and 2.
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:26 pm

I don't remember any autostart feature in those birds and it isn't in the manual but maybe I missed something. I don't know anything about the computer flight sims.


On the B744 Autostart was a customer option, but most aircraft had it fitted.

We once had a delivery flight at LHR en route to somewhere East of us. A new crew took over the flight. They had been trained by Boeing on a simulator with Autostart. They used the autostart procedure. This aircraft was not fitted with autostart ,and they managed to hot start two engines, which we then replaced for them.
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:33 pm

Tristarsteve wrote:
I don't remember any autostart feature in those birds and it isn't in the manual but maybe I missed something. I don't know anything about the computer flight sims.


On the B744 Autostart was a customer option, but most aircraft had it fitted.

We once had a delivery flight at LHR en route to somewhere East of us. A new crew took over the flight. They had been trained by Boeing on a simulator with Autostart. They used the autostart procedure. This aircraft was not fitted with autostart ,and they managed to hot start two engines, which we then replaced for them.



Wow! An expensive mistake!
 
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SaveFerris
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:05 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
Lpbri wrote:
I don't think on a 747-400 you can start 2 at a time.

Normally you would. And normally at my ex airline you would start 3 and 4 at the same time then 1 and 2.


Yup...the only time we start one at a time is an air cart or a crossbleed start. Otherwise the APU has more than enough bleed air pressure to start two at once.
 
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77west
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:29 am

The start order may also be influenced by whether the AUX HYD pumps are fitted to 1 and 4, or only 4. (Yet another of the 747s customer options) But typically at least 4 seems to always be started first, by itself or with one of the others if on a decent air source (APU)
77West - AW109S - BE90 - JS31 - B1900 - Q300 - ATR72 - DC9-30 - MD80 - B733 - A320 - B738 - A300-B4 - B773 - B77W
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:03 am

SaveFerris wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
Lpbri wrote:
I don't think on a 747-400 you can start 2 at a time.

Normally you would. And normally at my ex airline you would start 3 and 4 at the same time then 1 and 2.


Yup...the only time we start one at a time is an air cart or a crossbleed start. Otherwise the APU has more than enough bleed air pressure to start two at once.


When I worked with CI cargo at ORD, they would start one at a time, 1 thru 4. CV would start 3&4 then 2&1, PO & GT would do something weird like 2&4 then 1&3. JL and KZ started one at a time as well.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:38 am

SaveFerris wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
Lpbri wrote:
I don't think on a 747-400 you can start 2 at a time.

Normally you would. And normally at my ex airline you would start 3 and 4 at the same time then 1 and 2.


Yup...the only time we start one at a time is an air cart or a crossbleed start. Otherwise the APU has more than enough bleed air pressure to start two at once.


You’re only permitted to start two at a time if you have autostart. Can’t speak for what you guys really do, but that’s Boeing guidance IIRC.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:38 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
SaveFerris wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
Normally you would. And normally at my ex airline you would start 3 and 4 at the same time then 1 and 2.


Yup...the only time we start one at a time is an air cart or a crossbleed start. Otherwise the APU has more than enough bleed air pressure to start two at once.


You’re only permitted to start two at a time if you have autostart. Can’t speak for what you guys really do, but that’s Boeing guidance IIRC.


I checked my manuals again and NW didn't have the autostart (and I don't remember it even though I was only on the 400 for 2 years as an FO). The procedures were to normally start 2 at a time with the APU....so I guess the powers decided that the Boeing guidance in this case was overly cautious or something like that and blew it off. And I assume that Delta, since they're still flying the same birds, do the same.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:23 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
SaveFerris wrote:
77west wrote:
It depends if fitted with autostart or not. It is all in the provided manuals... with the product you bought...


This is correct, not sure how accurate the flight sim version is but in the real airplane the Autostart is selected on or off via a switch on the overhead panel. Unless it is deferred we use Autostart as it easier as well as protects against most start malfunctions. If using Autostart you simply pull the Start Valve selector out and then move the Fuel Cutoff to Run, the computer does the rest. With Autostart off you will get a line on the N2 indicator on the lower EICAS which indicates the minimum N2 at which you should introduce fuel. In this case you pull the Start Valve and wait until N2 reaches said line (or preferably max dry motoring N2) and then move the Fuel Cutoff selector to Run. Hopefully this helps!


Silly me. I was using the procedure we used for years at the red tails and presumably the couple of remaining 400s at Delta. I don't remember any autostart feature in those birds and it isn't in the manual but maybe I missed something. I don't know anything about the computer flight sims.

could be Northwest did/t ADD auto-start as an option? I only remember auto-start being used on aircraft coming out of C-check. where we started all 4 engines at once just to see if the apu would do it. other than that? The pilots used it to start 1 engine at a time either 2-1-3-4, or 2-3-1-4.
 
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SaveFerris
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:29 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
SaveFerris wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
Normally you would. And normally at my ex airline you would start 3 and 4 at the same time then 1 and 2.


Yup...the only time we start one at a time is an air cart or a crossbleed start. Otherwise the APU has more than enough bleed air pressure to start two at once.


You’re only permitted to start two at a time if you have autostart. Can’t speak for what you guys really do, but that’s Boeing guidance IIRC.


Good point, I forgot about manual starts. With Autostart inoperative our manuals call for starting each engine individually. For what it’s worth we almost always start #4 first.
 
Max Q
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:05 am

strfyr51 wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
SaveFerris wrote:

This is correct, not sure how accurate the flight sim version is but in the real airplane the Autostart is selected on or off via a switch on the overhead panel. Unless it is deferred we use Autostart as it easier as well as protects against most start malfunctions. If using Autostart you simply pull the Start Valve selector out and then move the Fuel Cutoff to Run, the computer does the rest. With Autostart off you will get a line on the N2 indicator on the lower EICAS which indicates the minimum N2 at which you should introduce fuel. In this case you pull the Start Valve and wait until N2 reaches said line (or preferably max dry motoring N2) and then move the Fuel Cutoff selector to Run. Hopefully this helps!


Silly me. I was using the procedure we used for years at the red tails and presumably the couple of remaining 400s at Delta. I don't remember any autostart feature in those birds and it isn't in the manual but maybe I missed something. I don't know anything about the computer flight sims.

could be Northwest did/t ADD auto-start as an option? I only remember auto-start being used on aircraft coming out of C-check. where we started all 4 engines at once just to see if the apu would do it. other than that? The pilots used it to start 1 engine at a time either 2-1-3-4, or 2-3-1-4.



Seriously, you were able to start all four
engines at once ?


I’m impressed there would be enough bleed air, did you approach start limit
egt’s ?


A slightly different question, even if auto start is installed Is there any reason why
you couldn’t run the N1 up to max
motoring or minimum required on a normal start before introducing fuel ?


So you would still have the auto start
protections but be covered in case they
didn’t function ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:05 am

RetiredWeasel wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
SaveFerris wrote:

Yup...the only time we start one at a time is an air cart or a crossbleed start. Otherwise the APU has more than enough bleed air pressure to start two at once.


You’re only permitted to start two at a time if you have autostart. Can’t speak for what you guys really do, but that’s Boeing guidance IIRC.


I checked my manuals again and NW didn't have the autostart (and I don't remember it even though I was only on the 400 for 2 years as an FO). The procedures were to normally start 2 at a time with the APU....so I guess the powers decided that the Boeing guidance in this case was overly cautious or something like that and blew it off. And I assume that Delta, since they're still flying the same birds, do the same.


The reason it's not permitted to start two engines at a time without Autostart is that the pilot has to monitor the parameters of both engines simultaneously and manually add fuel and manually decide to cut fuel if one or both stalls or has a hung start, etc. This was apparently deemed to be unacceptable workload or too risky. Autostart will do all this automatically so then can start both at once.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:24 am

BoeingGuy wrote:

The reason it's not permitted to start two engines at a time without Autostart is that the pilot has to monitor the parameters of both engines simultaneously and manually add fuel and manually decide to cut fuel if one or both stalls or has a hung start, etc. This was apparently deemed to be unacceptable workload or too risky. Autostart will do all this automatically so then can start both at once.


Well it wan't too hard for NW Captains....and if you still doubt, I can upload somewhere the SOPA (Standard Operating Procedures Amplified) text of how we started the engines. Starting both engines on one side was not hard since your hand was on both the fuel cutoff levers and we learned to multitask monitoring the engine instruments. Boeing must have felt United needed a simpler process (OK that's a poke in the ribs, not really what I think :lol: )
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:05 am

In my above post I referred to the Fuel Control Switches as Fuel Cutoff Levers. Most of my time was on the 200, so sometimes I may mix nomenclature up. However,I'm not confusing the starting procedures. (Too late to edit it)
 
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SaveFerris
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:00 pm

Max Q wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:

Silly me. I was using the procedure we used for years at the red tails and presumably the couple of remaining 400s at Delta. I don't remember any autostart feature in those birds and it isn't in the manual but maybe I missed something. I don't know anything about the computer flight sims.

could be Northwest did/t ADD auto-start as an option? I only remember auto-start being used on aircraft coming out of C-check. where we started all 4 engines at once just to see if the apu would do it. other than that? The pilots used it to start 1 engine at a time either 2-1-3-4, or 2-3-1-4.



Seriously, you were able to start all four
engines at once ?


I’m impressed there would be enough bleed air, did you approach start limit
egt’s ?


A slightly different question, even if auto start is installed Is there any reason why
you couldn’t run the N1 up to max
motoring or minimum required on a normal start before introducing fuel ?


So you would still have the auto start
protections but be covered in case they
didn’t function ?


I can’t comment on this four at once part but I can answer the last two questions. The Autostart logic requires both the start valve to be pulled out and the fuel control switch to be in the RUN position before it initiates the start sequence. When you pull out the start valve with Autostart on the engine bleed valve opens and that is all. The start valve doesn’t open until the fuel control switch is moved, so you have no way to dry motor the engine. And being nit picky but we’re looking at N2 when we do manual starts.

To answer your last question, we are still responsible for monitoring a few engine parameters that Autostart doesn’t cover (Autostart doesn’t monitor oil pressure or N1 rotation) so the crew is still paying attention to the start procedure. In theroy you should be monitoring the Autostart sequence so you can abort the start should something go wrong.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:09 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

The reason it's not permitted to start two engines at a time without Autostart is that the pilot has to monitor the parameters of both engines simultaneously and manually add fuel and manually decide to cut fuel if one or both stalls or has a hung start, etc. This was apparently deemed to be unacceptable workload or too risky. Autostart will do all this automatically so then can start both at once.


Well it wan't too hard for NW Captains....and if you still doubt, I can upload somewhere the SOPA (Standard Operating Procedures Amplified) text of how we started the engines. Starting both engines on one side was not hard since your hand was on both the fuel cutoff levers and we learned to multitask monitoring the engine instruments. Boeing must have felt United needed a simpler process (OK that's a poke in the ribs, not really what I think :lol: )


Did I say I doubted it?
 
mmo
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:35 pm

Retired Weasel is correct. I was with NW and was in the first group for the 400. The original order had manual start while the subsequent order had auto start because it cost more to delete it as it was now standard on the 400. For the acceptance flights we started all 4 at the same time as that was the original performance guarantee from Boeing. On the line, initially, it was one at a time and then it moved to 2 at a time.

Interestingly, when I was at SQ, we did it one at a time in the order of 4,1,2,3.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
744lover
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:04 pm

I'd say that even though starting two engines at a time is something certified and approved by Boeing, starting one at a time reduces the stress on the APU to put out more bleed air and therefore reduces wear-n-tear in it...

Just my 2 cents :)
 
BravoOne
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:22 am

Amazing 24 posts on how to start the 747 engines. I'm surprised that you guys ever got airborne. :)
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:12 am

BravoOne wrote:
Amazing 24 posts on how to start the 747 engines. I'm surprised that you guys ever got airborne. :)


:D

Jokes aside, some days there's so much stuff going during flight preparation that I'm amazed we leave the gate at anywhere near the scheduled time.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LH707330
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:11 am

Starlionblue wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Amazing 24 posts on how to start the 747 engines. I'm surprised that you guys ever got airborne. :)


:D

Jokes aside, some days there's so much stuff going during flight preparation that I'm amazed we leave the gate at anywhere near the scheduled time.

Well in your case, you just hit the "on" button on your video game controller, right? :P
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:07 am

Since no-one asked I mention the 777 anyway. RR and PW 777s can start both engines at one. GE engines cannot. Not sure about 787, which uses electric starters.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:49 am

LH707330 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Amazing 24 posts on how to start the 747 engines. I'm surprised that you guys ever got airborne. :)


:D

Jokes aside, some days there's so much stuff going during flight preparation that I'm amazed we leave the gate at anywhere near the scheduled time.

Well in your case, you just hit the "on" button on your video game controller, right? :P


Pretty much. :D

Basically the steps would be: Thrust lever - check idle. APU bleed - check on. Ignition - on. Engine master - on. Then sit and wait until the instruments say "AVAIL".

If the engine doesn't start for some reason the logic will even automatically crank it and try a new start with both igniters. We do still look at the gauges though because we could get a hot start or something.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:09 pm

Well, while I don't have any 747 experience I do have type ratings in the DC6/DC7, L188/737,727,707/720/757/767/777/787/DC10//L1011/MD11.GV/LearJet. Have flown all of them with the excpetion of the 787., so I guess I have started a few of them, not to mention the round engines that I have started as an FE.

Sorry to hear about you overworked condition in today airline ops.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Boeing 747-400 Start Up Procedure

Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:28 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Well, while I don't have any 747 experience I do have type ratings in the DC6/DC7, L188/737,727,707/720/757/767/777/787/DC10//L1011/MD11.GV/LearJet. Have flown all of them with the excpetion of the 787., so I guess I have started a few of them, not to mention the round engines that I have started as an FE.

Sorry to hear about you overworked condition in today airline ops.


Forgot the B377 KVNY ANG, and F7X

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