tu154
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737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:17 pm

Just curious as to why Boeing kept the practice of a manual girt bar for arming/disarming the slide rather than an automatic one as on most aircraft today.
Thank you.
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codc10
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:33 pm

tu154 wrote:
Just curious as to why Boeing kept the practice of a manual girt bar for arming/disarming the slide rather than an automatic one as on most aircraft today.
Thank you.


A major 737 customer (cough, Southwest, cough) has historically been adamantly against fundamental changes to basic systems to preserve commonality with existing aircraft.

Sort of, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it..."
 
Lpbri
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:05 pm

It would require a major redesign of the door.
 
AA737-823
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:33 pm

The door on the 737 is an antiquated design that isn't friendly to being modified in that way without SIGNIFICANT re-engineering.
The doors are also not compliant with current codes for opening force requirements; but they're grandfathered in as an existing design.

Besides that, arming the slide on the 737 isn't really very much work. Just put the bar into the clips. And hope someone doesn't open the door from the outside with it armed. Ahem.
 
StereoTechque
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:52 pm

AA737-823 wrote:

Besides that, arming the slide on the 737 isn't really very much work. Just put the bar into the clips. And hope someone doesn't open the door from the outside with it armed. Ahem.


After arming slide it is mandatory to display the warning flag across the door window for safety.
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WNCrew
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:21 am

A major 737 customer (cough, Southwest, cough) has historically been adamantly against fundamental changes to basic systems to preserve commonality with existing aircraft.

Sort of, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it..."[/quote]

Nope...

It truly is, as other posters have stated, due to Boeing not wanting to/being able to significantly redesign the door. The door is antiquated and no longer meets code.

Thank you Boeing.. for the MAX... where I still have to manually arm/disarm and there's no protection for the people outside. UGH
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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longhauler
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:06 pm

It is an old urban legend that Southwest Airlines is dictating to Boeing how to design and built 737s.

I recently had a Boeing executive on one of our flights. After dropping off the tshirts, lanyards, stickers and hats in the cockpit, we chatted a bit. I asked him about Southwest's input into the 737 and the MAX and he chuckled. "That rumour just wont die".

He said that Boeing, like any company, will do everything they can to accomodate their Customers, but not to the point of changing the actual aircraft itself. He said that the last 737 that Southwest affected was the 737-300. It was originally to have a cockpit similar to the 757/767, with glass/IRS ect. And some certainly do .... however, the analog cockpit offered was at the request of Southwest Airlines.

When I asked about how antiquated the MAX-8 cockpit appeared, his answer was similar to those above. Simply ... it works. And if it works, why change it? I swear, the overhead panel on the MAX-8 looks exactly like the 737-200 I flew 25 years ago ... and it was old then!
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KGRB
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:21 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
The door on the 737 is an antiquated design that isn't friendly to being modified in that way without SIGNIFICANT re-engineering.
The doors are also not compliant with current codes for opening force requirements; but they're grandfathered in as an existing design.

Besides that, arming the slide on the 737 isn't really very much work. Just put the bar into the clips. And hope someone doesn't open the door from the outside with it armed. Ahem.

The cabin doors on the 737 are ridiculously heavy and have a very ergonomic design. When you open a 737 door and then open an A320 door, it's a night-and-day difference.
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HAWK21M
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:11 pm

longhauler wrote:
I swear, the overhead panel on the MAX-8 looks exactly like the 737-200 I flew 25 years ago ... and it was old then!


What exactly did you find similiar to the B732 & not to the later versions on the P5 panel.
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767333ER
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:04 pm

longhauler wrote:
When I asked about how antiquated the MAX-8 cockpit appeared, his answer was similar to those above. Simply ... it works. And if it works, why change it? I swear, the overhead panel on the MAX-8 looks exactly like the 737-200 I flew 25 years ago ... and it was old then!

I’m not shooting the messenger, but his explanation is over simplified. The 737 remains unchanged in many areas because otherwise it wouldn’t be a 737. Guess which customers would dislike that the most, airlines like Alaska, Ryanair, and of course Southwest because they are/were single type carriers and they would have to have two different pilot pools for what would be a different type of plane. They may not of given much in the form of input other than that they want a 737 which is enough to keep all the not so nice features that some complain about. Much of this outdated stuff on the 737 works ok, good enough to be used on any newer plane. There are much better ways to design a cockpit and the interfaces and of course the doors, but in order to keep the same type rating their hands are tied.
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unimproved
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:05 pm

Changing a single thing would mean receritfying a door which has been designed together with the 707/727, and would have to be changed on many points to be certified with todays standards. It would also mean more training for F/A's switching between the type.
 
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longhauler
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:03 pm

HAWK21M wrote:
What exactly did you find similiar to the B732 & not to the later versions on the P5 panel.

I am not sure I understand your question. Are you asking what is similar to the 737-200 and not later models? As that is not what I said. Other than the -300, I have flown no later models.

I recently went to an air museum near where I live and when sitting in a 727-100 cockpit, I was surprised to see the same pressurization indications on the Flight Engineers panel as what one will see on a MAX-8 more than 50 years later!

767333ER wrote:
There are much better ways to design a cockpit and the interfaces and of course the doors, but in order to keep the same type rating their hands are tied.


Is it the same type rating though? On my (Canadian) ATPL, the 737-200 and 737-300 are different type ratings. I am going to guess that the MAX would be yet another type rating were I to fly it.
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Starlionblue
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:53 pm

longhauler wrote:
It is an old urban legend that Southwest Airlines is dictating to Boeing how to design and built 737s.

I recently had a Boeing executive on one of our flights. After dropping off the tshirts, lanyards, stickers and hats in the cockpit, we chatted a bit. I asked him about Southwest's input into the 737 and the MAX and he chuckled. "That rumour just wont die".

He said that Boeing, like any company, will do everything they can to accomodate their Customers, but not to the point of changing the actual aircraft itself. He said that the last 737 that Southwest affected was the 737-300. It was originally to have a cockpit similar to the 757/767, with glass/IRS ect. And some certainly do .... however, the analog cockpit offered was at the request of Southwest Airlines.

When I asked about how antiquated the MAX-8 cockpit appeared, his answer was similar to those above. Simply ... it works. And if it works, why change it? I swear, the overhead panel on the MAX-8 looks exactly like the 737-200 I flew 25 years ago ... and it was old then!


There's a difference between "it works" and "good ergonomic design". ;)

The "lights out" concept on an Airbus makes things very easy to gauge in critical situations. You don't get that with the 737.
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767333ER
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:45 pm

longhauler wrote:
Is it the same type rating though? On my (Canadian) ATPL, the 737-200 and 737-300 are different type ratings. I am going to guess that the MAX would be yet another type rating were I to fly it.

I think it is in the US and they just require an added on differences course. It is still certified under the 737-100s certification (this is the other major factor that limits change). I believe the rule is that your type rating and differences course allows you to operate two generations of 737 and it seems to have to be consecutive. With a 737 type rating and the appropriate differences courses you could fly the classic and the NG, but not the MAX as long as you are flying the classic. Once the classic is gone, you can fly the NG and the MAX. This of course is the reason for the delayed EIS for Southwest’s 737 MAX fleet.

Here in Canada of course we have the B73A which covers the Jurassic, the B73B which covers the classic, and the B73C which covers both the NG and the MAX.
Starlionblue wrote:
There's a difference between "it works" and "good ergonomic design". ;)

The "lights out" concept on an Airbus makes things very easy to gauge in critical situations. You don't get that with the 737.

Exactly and his is why basically everything built including Boeing since the 757 have used this philosophy to some degree as it is so much better than having some switches that have to be up, some down, some centred, some lights on, some lights off, and one or two switches that are lucky enough to have an auto position!
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BravoOne
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:09 pm

Keeping it simple and keeping it the same, if not similar allows SWA to train between models with a minimum amount of time spent $$$. A little bird told me that had not the Boeing approved training program come to fruition without any full flight simulator involved there was a cool one-million dollar penalty per airplane that SWA has on order. Those kind of numbers get your attention quickly, and as for SWA not driving the 737-8M program the guy from Boeing must be smoking some of that new weed they are selling up here in Seattle. SWA had a pilot(s) stationed at Boeing during the development stages and no other airline had that accommodation. You don't have to anyone special to hand out stickers to pilots.
 
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longhauler
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Re: 737 Girt Bar manual vs. automatic.

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:02 pm

What you describe is quite common with regard to a launch customer with a lot of experience on the airframe .... but, it is very different from mandating very basic design changes down to fundamental differences in cockpit design. As I mentioned, a very basic 737-300 virtually identical to the -200 for one customer, while also building the more advanced, and intended, -300 similar to the 757/767 of the day.

This is what the Director of Design Engineering - 737 (from his business card) was stating. As we also shared anecdotes about the 720, I am going to assume he has a fair bit of history behind him.
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