evank516
Topic Author
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:47 pm

I was wondering how the 737 MAX 7 will perform compared to the 737-700 on short runways and at hot/high airports? I know the 737-700 can perform relatively well on short runways (see EYW), but I'm curious as to whether that characteristic was retained with the MAX 7 or any of the new MAX aircraft?
 
CHI87LG
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:46 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:51 pm

Directly from the horse itself:

While the 737 MAX has its most improved performance in cruise, which will
improve the payload range capability by a percentage, the 737 MAX may have
slightly better performance in regards to field length limited takeoff and landing
charts. Using the existing 737NG charts will be a conservative estimate.


The MAX 7 is heavier and carries less fuel but it goes further and takes off in a shorter distance.
 
evank516
Topic Author
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:53 pm

CHI87LG wrote:
Directly from the horse itself:

While the 737 MAX has its most improved performance in cruise, which will
improve the payload range capability by a percentage, the 737 MAX may have
slightly better performance in regards to field length limited takeoff and landing
charts. Using the existing 737NG charts will be a conservative estimate.


The MAX 7 is heavier and carries less fuel but it goes further and takes off in a shorter distance.


So do you think the MAX 7 could handle an airport like EYW?
 
phxa340
Posts: 1012
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:07 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:58 pm

evank516 wrote:
CHI87LG wrote:
Directly from the horse itself:

While the 737 MAX has its most improved performance in cruise, which will
improve the payload range capability by a percentage, the 737 MAX may have
slightly better performance in regards to field length limited takeoff and landing
charts. Using the existing 737NG charts will be a conservative estimate.


The MAX 7 is heavier and carries less fuel but it goes further and takes off in a shorter distance.


So do you think the MAX 7 could handle an airport like EYW?


Doesn't Delta already bring in the 700 to Key West ? Or do you mean non weight restricted ?
 
Chemist
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:59 pm

I think the NG 700 has handled EYW, so you'd assume so given the above information.
 
evank516
Topic Author
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:00 pm

phxa340 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
CHI87LG wrote:
Directly from the horse itself:



The MAX 7 is heavier and carries less fuel but it goes further and takes off in a shorter distance.


So do you think the MAX 7 could handle an airport like EYW?


Doesn't Delta already bring in the 700 to Key West ? Or do you mean non weight restricted ?


DL does bring the 700 to Key West. The only weight restriction is the one checked bag rule. I was just curious if this feature was retained with the MAX line.
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 1554
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:03 pm

I wonder if the MAX 7 could be fitted with the thrust rating of the MAX 10, that would be pretty interesting.
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:12 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
I wonder if the MAX 7 could be fitted with the thrust rating of the MAX 10, that would be pretty interesting.


I missed this info......what's the thrust rating between the models?
 
User avatar
tjwgrr
Posts: 2200
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:09 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:22 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
I wonder if the MAX 7 could be fitted with the thrust rating of the MAX 10, that would be pretty interesting.


The MAX 7 SP - a pilot's dream
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 1554
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:23 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I wonder if the MAX 7 could be fitted with the thrust rating of the MAX 10, that would be pretty interesting.


I missed this info......what's the thrust rating between the models?


The MAX 10 will have 31K LEAP-1B engines, from the Boeing website I’m seeing the MAX 7 as being fitted with LEAP-1B in tthe 26-29K thrust range.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:01 pm

evank516 wrote:
phxa340 wrote:
evank516 wrote:

So do you think the MAX 7 could handle an airport like EYW?


Doesn't Delta already bring in the 700 to Key West ? Or do you mean non weight restricted ?


DL does bring the 700 to Key West. The only weight restriction is the one checked bag rule. I was just curious if this feature was retained with the MAX line.


I believe DL will be switching all Key West operations to C300's in the future.
WN 700's handle the airport just fine!
The pilot work group kept complaining the Runway safety margins were to thin to keep operations at Key West.

I believe WN pushed Boeing for better short field performance with 7MAX with plans for SNA and BUR in mind so it could successfully operate markets like Hawaii and longer flights without payload restrictions.

COPA, WestJet and Ryan air are also pushing for a additional performance with the 7MAX.

Hopefully Boeing can deliver.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 2990
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:33 pm

phxa340 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
CHI87LG wrote:
Directly from the horse itself:



The MAX 7 is heavier and carries less fuel but it goes further and takes off in a shorter distance.


So do you think the MAX 7 could handle an airport like EYW?


Doesn't Delta already bring in the 700 to Key West ? Or do you mean non weight restricted ?


Delta bought its few original -700s equipped for short field ops in mind, did it not?

viewtopic.php?t=762415
 
LH707330
Posts: 1781
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:01 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I wonder if the MAX 7 could be fitted with the thrust rating of the MAX 10, that would be pretty interesting.


I missed this info......what's the thrust rating between the models?


The MAX 10 will have 31K LEAP-1B engines, from the Boeing website I’m seeing the MAX 7 as being fitted with LEAP-1B in tthe 26-29K thrust range.

I think you'd run into moment arm issues due to the shorter tube. Same reason the 319 doesn't get the moist powerful ones in its range.
 
evank516
Topic Author
Posts: 356
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:26 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
evank516 wrote:
phxa340 wrote:

Doesn't Delta already bring in the 700 to Key West ? Or do you mean non weight restricted ?


DL does bring the 700 to Key West. The only weight restriction is the one checked bag rule. I was just curious if this feature was retained with the MAX line.


I believe DL will be switching all Key West operations to C300's in the future.
WN 700's handle the airport just fine!
The pilot work group kept complaining the Runway safety margins were to thin to keep operations at Key West.

I believe WN pushed Boeing for better short field performance with 7MAX with plans for SNA and BUR in mind so it could successfully operate markets like Hawaii and longer flights without payload restrictions.

COPA, WestJet and Ryan air are also pushing for a additional performance with the 7MAX.

Hopefully Boeing can deliver.

Flyguy


Not the CS300, but definitely the CS100, however we need to remember that they won't be basing them out of ATL at first. Though it would be a prime time to re-launch NYC-EYW either from JFK or LGA.
 
User avatar
sunstar
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:07 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:52 pm

Do any of the 737's MAX aircraft come with the Short Field Package like on the NG's
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 4559
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:21 pm

sunstar wrote:
Do any of the 737's MAX aircraft come with the Short Field Package like on the NG's


They all do. The Short Field Package is baseline on the MAX.
 
User avatar
enzo011
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:12 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:59 am

CHI87LG wrote:
Directly from the horse itself:

While the 737 MAX has its most improved performance in cruise, which will
improve the payload range capability by a percentage, the 737 MAX may have
slightly better performance in regards to field length limited takeoff and landing
charts. Using the existing 737NG charts will be a conservative estimate.


The MAX 7 is heavier and carries less fuel but it goes further and takes off in a shorter distance.


Is this before the slight stretch of the 737-7MAX or just a general comment on the whole family?
 
WIederling
Posts: 4635
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:19 am

enzo011 wrote:
Is this before the slight stretch of the 737-7MAX or just a general comment on the whole family?


The Mk2 incarnation of the 7MAX now is a _simple shrink_ of the 8MAX. ( to slightly above the length of the -700/-7MAX Mk1.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
CHI87LG
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:46 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:54 pm

enzo011 wrote:
CHI87LG wrote:
Directly from the horse itself:

While the 737 MAX has its most improved performance in cruise, which will
improve the payload range capability by a percentage, the 737 MAX may have
slightly better performance in regards to field length limited takeoff and landing
charts. Using the existing 737NG charts will be a conservative estimate.


The MAX 7 is heavier and carries less fuel but it goes further and takes off in a shorter distance.


Is this before the slight stretch of the 737-7MAX or just a general comment on the whole family?

Just a general comment on the new MAX planes. They are heavier without fuel, but carry less fuel - and use much less fuel at cruise. It's somewhat remarkable that it works out that way.
 
WIederling
Posts: 4635
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:29 am

CHI87LG wrote:
Just a general comment on the new MAX planes. They are heavier without fuel, but carry less fuel - and use much less fuel at cruise. It's somewhat remarkable that it works out that way.


Nothing remarkable about it at all as it is the primary design objective.

You accept higher structure or engine weights for an even higher gain in fuel efficiency.
( and explains why the older model still may perform better on the shortest routes.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
737tanker
Posts: 321
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:47 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:50 pm

wnflyguy
It wasn't pilots complaining about the short runway that caused WN to pull out of EYW but the fact that WN couldn't get the same OpSpecs for a wet runway that FL had, and DL currently has. That meant that anytime there was any moisture at EYW WN had to drastically limit the number of passengers. The FAA was reluctant to approve the new OpSpecs due to the runway overruns that WN had at BUR and MDW as well as other issues.
 
User avatar
BawliBooch
Posts: 854
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:23 pm

Somewhat related question: Can a 737 MAX8 with 168 seats operate a 2/3 hour sector without load restrictions from a 9000 ft runway 10700 feet Above Sea Level? Or will the airline have to maintain a subfleet of 737 MAX7's to do the route?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 2672
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:38 pm

evank516 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
evank516 wrote:

DL does bring the 700 to Key West. The only weight restriction is the one checked bag rule. I was just curious if this feature was retained with the MAX line.


I believe DL will be switching all Key West operations to C300's in the future.
WN 700's handle the airport just fine!
The pilot work group kept complaining the Runway safety margins were to thin to keep operations at Key West.

I believe WN pushed Boeing for better short field performance with 7MAX with plans for SNA and BUR in mind so it could successfully operate markets like Hawaii and longer flights without payload restrictions.

COPA, WestJet and Ryan air are also pushing for a additional performance with the 7MAX.

Hopefully Boeing can deliver.

Flyguy


Not the CS300, but definitely the CS100, however we need to remember that they won't be basing them out of ATL at first. Though it would be a prime time to re-launch NYC-EYW either from JFK or LGA.


Not only that, but Delta would have to order the CS300, in order to actually operate the thing...
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
767333ER
Posts: 700
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:14 am

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:06 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
evank516 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:

I believe DL will be switching all Key West operations to C300's in the future.
WN 700's handle the airport just fine!
The pilot work group kept complaining the Runway safety margins were to thin to keep operations at Key West.

I believe WN pushed Boeing for better short field performance with 7MAX with plans for SNA and BUR in mind so it could successfully operate markets like Hawaii and longer flights without payload restrictions.

COPA, WestJet and Ryan air are also pushing for a additional performance with the 7MAX.

Hopefully Boeing can deliver.

Flyguy


Not the CS300, but definitely the CS100, however we need to remember that they won't be basing them out of ATL at first. Though it would be a prime time to re-launch NYC-EYW either from JFK or LGA.


Not only that, but Delta would have to order the CS300, in order to actually operate the thing...

Or just use their CS100s if/when they end up getting them.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 13208
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:55 pm

LH707330 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:

I missed this info......what's the thrust rating between the models?


The MAX 10 will have 31K LEAP-1B engines, from the Boeing website I’m seeing the MAX 7 as being fitted with LEAP-1B in tthe 26-29K thrust range.

I think you'd run into moment arm issues due to the shorter tube. Same reason the 319 doesn't get the moist powerful ones in its range.

Tail size (force) times moment arm determines the maximum thrust. However, there are work arounds. The C-series has a higher thrust option that only kicks in above 100kts. This allows enough tail force to counter the slight addition of thrust.

Unless a taller tail is put on (for example, airbus could put the A318 tail on the A320), the MAX 7 thrust will be rudder/tail area limited. To others, this is due to the engine out scenario where either the tail counters a big torque disparity (one engine is just drag, the other is at maximum throttle as controlled by the FADAC), or the plane does the cartwheel of death.

So the MAX 7 could have more thrust if that added thrust is only available at some air speed. Now, weight would be added to handle the stresses of the added thrust, so when the shortfield performance isn't needed, it is just cost as every kg of added weight ends up costing about $500 per decade of operation (more fuel burn, break and tire wear). So how does Boeing handle this?

WIth the A321LR, airbus is putting in all the weight for all planes as the manufacturing cost savings and improved resale makes everyone happy. A small thrust increase wouldn't add much weight, but how many more sales to pay for the engineering and the more expensive part for a small modification, the flight testing. For you have to repeat noise, takeoff, and crosswind.

For the MAX 7, Boeing should look into leading edge treatment as Airbus is doing for the A320NEO shortfield kit.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-416903/

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
WIederling
Posts: 4635
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
For the MAX 7, Boeing should look into leading edge treatment as Airbus is doing for the A320NEO shortfield kit.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-416903/


Isn't SHARP primarily about optimizing the wing to body fairing?
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 13208
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:55 am

WIederling wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
For the MAX 7, Boeing should look into leading edge treatment as Airbus is doing for the A320NEO shortfield kit.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-416903/


Isn't SHARP primarily about optimizing the wing to body fairing?

Yes. I mis-typed, for while it is the leading edge of the fairing, what I wrote implied more. The NG would benefit from similar work. Heck, ever since the F-17/F-18, everyone knows the trick of stopping separation at the wing root.
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
WIederling
Posts: 4635
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: 737-700 vs 737 MAX 7 Short Field and Hot/High Performance

Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:23 am

lightsaber wrote:
The NG would benefit from similar work. Heck, ever since the F-17/F-18, everyone knows the trick of stopping separation at the wing root.


Does the NG ever develop that issue?
The 737 Dachshundfeet limit rotation ( lack of adequate lift at lower speeds ) and thus flow separation should be less of an issue?
Murphy is an optimist

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos