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RRTrent
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Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:51 pm

I have a question from any Ground Ops people here. More so out of curiosity than anything else.

I watch a lot of videos on YouTube of take offs from a passenger POV (wing view). A lot of these videos include the push back and I have noticed a certain airports the push appears not to have a turn, and the plane is pushed back in a straight line and turns onto the center line under its own power once it starts taxiing. I also noticed this when I was in ARN recently, any push back I paid attention to was just in a straight line (there was a slight nudge left or right but nothing close to a turn)

Might this be a fuel saving measure for the tugs? or save time for the push?
 
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tb727
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:55 pm

It depends on a lot of things and also the airport. The ramp or ground controller decides on which way they want you pointing after pushback. Most of the time it depends on which runway they are departing on. A few airports, like ATL, you call with your SID departure and that determines which way they want you pushed. Certain departures use certain runways in certain wind and flow conditions.
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RRTrent
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:27 pm

tb727 wrote:
It depends on a lot of things and also the airport. The ramp or ground controller decides on which way they want you pointing after pushback. Most of the time it depends on which runway they are departing on. A few airports, like ATL, you call with your SID departure and that determines which way they want you pushed. Certain departures use certain runways in certain wind and flow conditions.


That's what I mean, the aircraft isn't turned in the push so is pointing at the gate when the push is complete.

For example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixiuXwlqxo8
 
Woodreau
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:48 pm

The ground crew just pushes the aircraft where the pilot tells them to push.

I don't think the ramp crew cares about saving fuel or saving time.

The pilot doesn't care whether the aircraft is turned or pushed straight back.
At some airports, the ramp is controlled and the ramp controller tells the pilot which direction they want the tail to go.
At some other airports, the ramp doesn't care either so if the ramp doesn't care and the pilots don't care, then it's whatever the ramp crew wants to do.

as long as there's communications between the ground/ramp the flight crew and the ramp crew - the aircraft gets pushed back so that everyone's happy.
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alasizon
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:23 pm

It all depends on the way the airport is setup. For instance, here in PHX (T4 specific), pushing straight back would do no good (and would actually jetblast gates opposite them in the alley). So everything gets lined up on the taxilane based on either the standard push or what the ramp controller (AA side only) wants done. Some of our gates have four different pushback procedures that can be used depending on other aircraft as well as what the ramp controller's plan is.

Pushing straight back doesn't necessarily save any more fuel than including a turn.
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Redbellyguppy
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:35 pm

It depends on the airport. In Denver for example they will push you to the purple line but they are only allowed to push straight back. In Atl they expect you to single engine taxi so the standard is to push at a 45 so you can turn out easier. In SNA they have to push you parallel to the terminal so you don't blast the ga runway 20L. At certain airports they have to push pull you to a certain spot for engine start. At others it's a free for all.
 
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RRTrent
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:49 pm

It makes a lot of sense I suppose, I would imagine it's also quicker. The push pull procedure mentioned is common at pier 1 in DUB (my home airport)
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:11 pm

At ARN the airport publishes a diagram of push back routes for every gate. A copy is held in the tug so the driver can see. The straightish push back makes life easier in the winter when the ramp can get very icy, and the tug can slide about.
 
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Balerit
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:45 pm

Reminds me of the time I was working on an aircraft on the ramp. A new foreign aircraft arrived and as he pulled into the parking bay he must have lost sight of the marshaller or something because he suddenly stopped halfway, then decided to take power to go all the way in. Meanwhile on the opposite side of the parking bay they were offloading boxes of asparagus. Well I tell you, all I saw was this sea of green flying past me :)
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Starlionblue
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:07 am

At some airports ground just tell you to push, and the driver knows where to go because apparently that gate always pushes the same way.

Some airports use instructions like "push tail east" or "push nose west". Those are of course the same and wouldn't it be nice with a worldwide standard...? Additional instructions can be things like be "long push" or "push until abeam gate 32" or "pull forward".

Some airports like HKG have colour coded pushes. For example ground will tell you "push and start colour red" (the other options being blue and green). So you tell the marshaller "cleared push and start red". The tug driver then follows the red line on the pavement. The colour simply defines where the push goes. There's a chart for each colour among the taxi charts.

Some airports, e.g. TLV, have numbered target positions, for example "push to position 11".

HKG main ramp:
- Push red http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/AD/HK_AD2-99A.pdf
- Push blue http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/AD/HK_AD2-99B.pdf
- Push green: http://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/AIP/AD/HK_AD2-99C.pdf
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RRTrent
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:16 am

Wow... there is a lot more to it in HKG than I would have imagined... N26 has a quick push on red, but the next gate N24.. has a long trip down the concourse and around the corner to the disconnect point.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Push Back Procedures

Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:52 am

RRTrent wrote:
Wow... there is a lot more to it in HKG than I would have imagined... N26 has a quick push on red, but the next gate N24.. has a long trip down the concourse and around the corner to the disconnect point.


That's because with "push colour red" on N24, if you just push and angle the aircraft 90 degrees to the gate, the tail could encroach on E15. (Same situation at N22.) So you need to push further along the taxiway. It's a semi-tight spot due to the satellite terminal (gates numbered N501-510).

If you're at N24 you're probably more likely to get "Push colour blue", allowing taxi on B9 to B or A, which gets you out of the alley faster.

If you're at N26, on the other hand, "Push colour red" gives the shorter way out onto B8.


All depends on conditions at the time.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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