TerminalD
Topic Author
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What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:25 pm

I know from experience that the manufacturer data is unusable and based upon non-real world assumptions. Plus, it doesn't include Ops-Spec based limitations caused by reserve fuel requirements.

Anybody who works in a carrier's Ops department with the plane onsite (or who have done a real analysis for their carrier) know the real answer? I'm talking no passenger limitation or bag limit, but zero cargo capability left. I'm particularly interested in Westbound transatlantic year-round.

THANKS!!!
Last edited by TerminalD on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TerminalD
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:27 pm

As a follow-up, an article in the NYT from a year ago claimed the 737 MAX 8 could make it 3500 miles Westbound on the Atlantic, presumably with zero cargo. I have some verification that is near the limit, but is it longer? WW was flying the A321 NEO 3700 KEF-MIA in the Summer, but not regularly.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:41 pm

What's the elevation of the departure airport? What's the air temp? What are the headwinds? What are the weather conditions at the destination airport and all diversion airports... How frequently will the carrier tolerate a tech stop?

You want a simple answer yet there isn't one.
 
c933103
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:46 pm

While the figure published by manufacturer are usually not real world and usually have lots of assumptions that aren't realistic, most of the time I believe they do take into account reserve fuel requirement when writing those figures.

And you also have to consider the cabin layout and thus the payload the aircraft will carry. If you make it all premium then it can have much more range, conversely at max density it probably cannot actually do TATL, but most carriers use config in between
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:48 pm

Norwegian is using the 737-8 on BGO-SWF on non-ETOPS routings. I don't know if seats are blocked or not, but that's 3600-3800sm depending on route taken.
 
arcticcruiser
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:33 pm

Now to answer the OP, in aviation we use Nautical miles, and NMs only. A321neo does not have the range to fly payload KEF-MIA, that appears to have been positioning only without payload to retrieve pax from a grounded a/c. 737MAX8 and a A321neo w/2 ACTs (third one eats payload) will do about 2600-2800nm sectors w 170 and 185 pax respectively. And fuel for an alternate airport and normal reserves. A321neoLR will do about 3100-3200nm using same criteria. Anything more is wishful thinking and dropping alternates and reduced reserves (redispatch). Which can be done, but reduces schedule reliability as UA (and others) 757 TATL ops have shown.
 
TerminalD
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Posts: 340
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
What's the elevation of the departure airport? What's the air temp? What are the headwinds? What are the weather conditions at the destination airport and all diversion airports... How frequently will the carrier tolerate a tech stop?

You want a simple answer yet there isn't one.

I'm not talking Denver. <500 feet above sea level. Typical Atlantic Winter winds.
c933103 wrote:
While the figure published by manufacturer are usually not real world and usually have lots of assumptions that aren't realistic, most of the time I believe they do take into account reserve fuel requirement when writing those figures.

And you also have to consider the cabin layout and thus the payload the aircraft will carry. If you make it all premium then it can have much more range, conversely at max density it probably cannot actually do TATL, but most carriers use config in between

I think I have to assume WW/DY style configurations since that is the primary user of this strategy thus far.
arcticcruiser wrote:
Now to answer the OP, in aviation we use Nautical miles, and NMs only. A321neo does not have the range to fly payload KEF-MIA, that appears to have been positioning only without payload to retrieve pax from a grounded a/c. 737MAX8 and a A321neo w/2 ACTs (third one eats payload) will do about 2600-2800nm sectors w 170 and 185 pax respectively. And fuel for an alternate airport and normal reserves. A321neoLR will do about 3100-3200nm using same criteria. Anything more is wishful thinking and dropping alternates and reduced reserves (redispatch). Which can be done, but reduces schedule reliability as UA (and others) 757 TATL ops have shown.

THANKS!
MIA-KEF is 3200nm, so you kind of contradict. How much more can progressive dispatch get on a relatively reliable basis? Are we talking 200 or 500 more?
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:45 pm

What is the contradiction? I have not seen that the airplane flew with pax MIA-KEF nonstop. Maybe there was a fuel stop, or with a really high tailwind component, the ESAD (Equivalent Still Air Distance) came down to 2800nm. What was the payload? We don't know.
Redispatch (reducing reserve fuel) might yield 100-150nm. Would mostly be used to battle bad headwinds on the day.
 
airbazar
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:47 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
Now to answer the OP, in aviation we use Nautical miles, and NMs only. A321neo does not have the range to fly payload KEF-MIA, that appears to have been positioning only without payload to retrieve pax from a grounded a/c. 737MAX8 and a A321neo w/2 ACTs (third one eats payload) will do about 2600-2800nm sectors w 170 and 185 pax respectively. And fuel for an alternate airport and normal reserves. A321neoLR will do about 3100-3200nm using same criteria. Anything more is wishful thinking and dropping alternates and reduced reserves (redispatch). Which can be done, but reduces schedule reliability as UA (and others) 757 TATL ops have shown.


A standard A321ceo has been flying KEF-BWI every day, in a high density configuration, Summer and Winter and that is 2,400nm. If a NEO with only 170-185 pax can only do 2,600-2,800 as you say, then Airbus screwed up royally and future customers will be asking for compensation. Somehow I don't think that's true. KEF-TLV which starts today, is over 2,800nm, so already beyond what you suggest to be the limit. 3,100nm such as MIA-KEF should be within the range of the A321NEO with 200pax but just barely.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 2240
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:22 pm

Well if it helps it would do it as follows
EGLL-KJFK KBOS alt
7+16
46,1 FOB
EINN BIKF ETOPS alts
Payload 31,200
Dist 3058
WC -30
 
TerminalD
Topic Author
Posts: 340
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:19 pm

airbazar wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
Now to answer the OP, in aviation we use Nautical miles, and NMs only. A321neo does not have the range to fly payload KEF-MIA, that appears to have been positioning only without payload to retrieve pax from a grounded a/c. 737MAX8 and a A321neo w/2 ACTs (third one eats payload) will do about 2600-2800nm sectors w 170 and 185 pax respectively. And fuel for an alternate airport and normal reserves. A321neoLR will do about 3100-3200nm using same criteria. Anything more is wishful thinking and dropping alternates and reduced reserves (redispatch). Which can be done, but reduces schedule reliability as UA (and others) 757 TATL ops have shown.


A standard A321ceo has been flying KEF-BWI every day, in a high density configuration, Summer and Winter and that is 2,400nm. If a NEO with only 170-185 pax can only do 2,600-2,800 as you say, then Airbus screwed up royally and future customers will be asking for compensation. Somehow I don't think that's true. KEF-TLV which starts today, is over 2,800nm, so already beyond what you suggest to be the limit. 3,100nm such as MIA-KEF should be within the range of the A321NEO with 200pax but just barely.

Ignoring air density, DEN-KEF is significantly shorter than MIA. Seems crazy far.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 279
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:04 am

c933103 wrote:
While the figure published by manufacturer are usually not real world and usually have lots of assumptions that aren't realistic, most of the time I believe they do take into account reserve fuel requirement when writing those figures.


Which reserve fuel? Probably in the most favourable conditions over ground with several alternative airports nearby. Oceanic flights need more reserve, as there are no alternative airport in the middle - in the most extreme case the first alternative is the origin.
 
mmo
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:41 am

YIMBY wrote:
c933103 wrote:
While the figure published by manufacturer are usually not real world and usually have lots of assumptions that aren't realistic, most of the time I believe they do take into account reserve fuel requirement when writing those figures.


Which reserve fuel? Probably in the most favourable conditions over ground with several alternative airports nearby. Oceanic flights need more reserve, as there are no alternative airport in the middle - in the most extreme case the first alternative is the origin.


Please tell me where you are getting this from?
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:28 am

YIMBY wrote:
c933103 wrote:
While the figure published by manufacturer are usually not real world and usually have lots of assumptions that aren't realistic, most of the time I believe they do take into account reserve fuel requirement when writing those figures.


Which reserve fuel? Probably in the most favourable conditions over ground with several alternative airports nearby. Oceanic flights need more reserve, as there are no alternative airport in the middle - in the most extreme case the first alternative is the origin.


You are way off an your analysis. The Reserve fuel that was built into the brief flight plan numbers I quoted were fro FAR121.645. Individual operators can and do tweak their Opspecs to reduce that additional fuel carried but that is beyond the scope of this topic. Also not included was any additional fuel required for ETOPS/APU, if any.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:26 pm

When Airbus or Boeing post range figures assume they are maximums, and under ideal conditions. From that you can do some calculations to arrive at real world ranges. Or, if you are buying an airplane for certain routes the sales personnel and company engineers (often one and the same) will provide guaranteed figures for you. High level sales people do not operate like the proverbial used car salesman. The later deals with you once, and neither of you expect to ever see each other again. The former depend upon long term relationships, and provide ongoing support during and after the sale.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
BravoOne
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:57 pm

I would assume Boeing use something like "Boeing or Bracknell average winds" for the routes in question?
 
arcticcruiser
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:16 pm

Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:37 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Well if it helps it would do it as follows
EGLL-KJFK KBOS alt
7+16
46,1 FOB
EINN BIKF ETOPS alts
Payload 31,200
Dist 3058
WC -30


And that is a payload of 140 pax at best. And we do not know the config or the OEW behind this which is crucial.
 
BravoOne
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:14 pm

That because I didn't tell you:)
Max payload is 42000
This flight's payload was was 32000
The actual takeoff weight was 175200
The MTOW is 181,200
FOB was 46.1 which is max fuel
There was 30 minutes of hold + an additional 2300 lbs of FOB
All in all; 46100 FOB or 9:37 hours of flight time.
Might mention that this particular routing did not use the RLatSM flight plan which should have been a couple of minutes more beneficial? M78 all the way
FL 340/360
So we are under the MTOGW by 6000 LBS which is around 28 Pax. Under the max pay load by almost 10000 LBS

Would I want to ride on any 737 crossing the NAT or CEP to HNL? NO, as I simply don't like the airplane. Ditto for the Bus. BUT, it is capable with some variables thrown in.

Your weight/pax analogy is about right. 32000 lbs is around 150 pax. Add another 25 and you will be close.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: What Is the Real Westbound Transatlantic Range of the 737MAX and A320/1NEO?

Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:27 pm

Thanks for the further info. Being at max fuel, any additional payload would start eating into reserves, so this is realistically about max pax for this routing. Adding 6000lbs might not tip the scales but would not be possible as a planned capability every day. There are far worse days on the NATL than -30 WC during winter...

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