intothinair
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EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:23 am

Hello A.Net

What are the chances of EK going 11 abreast on the 777X in Y class? I know that the sidewalls of the 777X are being thinned, but what will the implications on floor width be?

I would say if the floor width is being increased by 10 inches or more, this could work. Bring down the width from 17 to 16.5 inches and voila.

Something for Sir Tim Clark to consider. More and more young price sensitive consumers are exploring the world on their conquest to rack up as many Instagram Likes as possible, and if EK can drop a continental ticket by 100 dollars by going 11 abreast, they would capture this market, as 99% of this audience do not ever care what airline they fly as longs as its cheapest.

Sounds like a very good business proposition.

Thoughts?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:26 am

I'm not sure what the exit limit is for 779, but this would probably take them over it.
Much like a GE90, I'm a huge fan of Big Twins...
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:27 am

Your previous thread on 11 abreast in the 777X should answer your question, viewtopic.php?t=1356807

Too tight of a squeeze and too low of an exit limit.
 
kengo
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:31 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
I'm not sure what the exit limit is for 779, but this would probably take them over it.


Per Stitch on an another thread, the pax limit on the 777-9 is 475.

viewtopic.php?t=606425
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:41 am

kengo wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
I'm not sure what the exit limit is for 779, but this would probably take them over it.


Per Stitch on an another thread, the pax limit on the 777-9 is 475.

viewtopic.php?t=606425



Hmmm... Well ANA and JAL are already over 500 in domestic configuration without 11 across on their 77Ws, so I don't think that would really do anything for a 779. There's that...
Much like a GE90, I'm a huge fan of Big Twins...
 
scotron11
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:04 am

EK stated they had no interest in the A380 at 11 abreast, so I see no reason they would then take an 11 abreast 779!
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:28 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Hmmm... Well ANA and JAL are already over 500 in domestic configuration without 11 across on their 77Ws, so I don't think that would really do anything for a 779. There's that...


The 777-9 is removing the wing exit door. The vast majority of carriers do not use the full evacuation seat capacity of the 77W, so Boeing is removing the door to save weight and allow better use of the cabin floor space.

(Edit: posted in regards to 500-seat configurations)
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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TheLion
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:23 am

Don't you mean A380? Absolutely no chance on the 777X. It would be too much of a squeeze. The 777X is already maxed out at 10-across, even with its walls carved to supposedly allow comfortable 18-inch wide seats, let alone 11-across. Indeed, whether it really will be real-world configured with 18 inch wide seats at 10-across is also yet to be determined. And the "Instagram likes" part of your post was just silly tbh, if amusing.
 
sadiqutp
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:25 am

Thinning the walls of the 777x is never intended to introduce 11 abreast. It's merely to make 10 abreast more comfortable compared to the previous generation!
 
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OA940
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:51 am

IIRC the 77X was designed to have 10-abreast with wider seats than the 777, without it being 9-abreast 777 wide. AKA around 18 inches. So an 11-abreast version would be like 9-abreast A330's or 10-abreast A350's. Not to mention the exit limit.
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intothinair
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:32 am

TheLion wrote:
Don't you mean A380? Absolutely no chance on the 777X. It would be too much of a squeeze. The 777X is already maxed out at 10-across, even with its walls carved to supposedly allow comfortable 18-inch wide seats, let alone 11-across. Indeed, whether it really will be real-world configured with 18 inch wide seats at 10-across is also yet to be determined. And the "Instagram likes" part of your post was just silly tbh, if amusing.


Not silly at all. Every like on Instagram is like a little injection of dopamine. Makes you feel good. Ever wondered why millenials spend 4 hours on social media a day, and 30mins editing each picture? Its like a legal drug party. Every like counts my friend. Still dont beleive me? Read this:

http://blog.wolfmillionaire.com/psychol ... gram-post/

What is ofcourse important to caveat is that not everyone is like this. I am simply pointing out an actual trend based on statistical information (big data). Happy to share more research articles on this topic if required.
 
intothinair
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:35 am

OA940 wrote:
IIRC the 77X was designed to have 10-abreast with wider seats than the 777, without it being 9-abreast 777 wide. AKA around 18 inches. So an 11-abreast version would be like 9-abreast A330's or 10-abreast A350's. Not to mention the exit limit.


Correct. Which doesnt make it unfeasible for an operator like EK to go 11 across on a 777X. With a substantial F and C class, having 11 across Y on 777X @ 16.8 inches width the plane would still likely come up short of 475 people exit limit. Just my thoughts. Lets see what Tim Clark will do.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:59 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Hmmm... Well ANA and JAL are already over 500 in domestic configuration without 11 across on their 77Ws, so I don't think that would really do anything for a 779. There's that...


The 777-9 is removing the wing exit door. The vast majority of carriers do not use the full evacuation seat capacity of the 77W, so Boeing is removing the door to save weight and allow better use of the cabin floor space.

(Edit: posted in regards to 500-seat configurations)



You're not wrong. But all the more reason not to expect 11 across.
Much like a GE90, I'm a huge fan of Big Twins...
 
george77300
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:06 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Hmmm... Well ANA and JAL are already over 500 in domestic configuration without 11 across on their 77Ws, so I don't think that would really do anything for a 779. There's that...


The 777-9 is removing the wing exit door. The vast majority of carriers do not use the full evacuation seat capacity of the 77W, so Boeing is removing the door to save weight and allow better use of the cabin floor space.

(Edit: posted in regards to 500-seat configurations)


Please correct me if I'm wrong but the 777-8X is removing a door to be 4 on each side but the pictures of the -9X are still showing 5 doors on each side.
A306 A313 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A388

B712 B733 B734 B735 B738 B742 B744 B752 B763 B772 B77E B773 B77W
 
WIederling
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:36 pm

scotron11 wrote:
EK stated they had no interest in the A380 at 11 abreast, so I see no reason they would then take an 11 abreast 779!


That is not really comparable, is it?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Stitch
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:47 pm

george77300 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the 777-8X is removing a door to be 4 on each side but the pictures of the -9X are still showing 5 doors on each side.


The 777-8 has four Type A Exit Doors (each rated for 110 passengers), which gives an Exit Limit of 440 (based on only four doors being available for evacuation).

The 777-9 can be configured with four different exit door configurations*, but I expect the one every operator will use is four Type A and one Type C which would give an Exit Limit of 495. That being said, I imagine most, if not all, operators will plug the Type C door, making the Exit Limit the same 440 as the 777-8. Emirates themselves have said the 777-9 will have a maximum of 440 seats in two classes [49J | 391Y].


*The four options are:

C-A-A-A (385)
A-A-A-A (440)
C-A-A-C-A (440)
A-A-A-C-A (495)
 
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TheLion
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:27 pm

intothinair wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Don't you mean A380? Absolutely no chance on the 777X. It would be too much of a squeeze. The 777X is already maxed out at 10-across, even with its walls carved to supposedly allow comfortable 18-inch wide seats, let alone 11-across. Indeed, whether it really will be real-world configured with 18 inch wide seats at 10-across is also yet to be determined. And the "Instagram likes" part of your post was just silly tbh, if amusing.


Not silly at all. Every like on Instagram is like a little injection of dopamine. Makes you feel good. Ever wondered why millenials spend 4 hours on social media a day, and 30mins editing each picture? Its like a legal drug party. Every like counts my friend. Still dont beleive me? Read this:

http://blog.wolfmillionaire.com/psychol ... gram-post/

What is ofcourse important to caveat is that not everyone is like this. I am simply pointing out an actual trend based on statistical information (big data). Happy to share more research articles on this topic if required.


Sure, of course not everyone is going to spend that amount of time editing. However I doubt very much people are flying long haul just to take pictures and post them on Instagram, which was essentially your point.

Agree on the likes point though. It's an extension of the classic human desire to feel wanted and loved.
 
Eyad89
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:51 pm

Now that the thinner wall of 777x has been brought up, I have an off-topic question. Does the thinner wall reduce the OEW? I could not find any information about the specifications of the new alloys.
 
george77300
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:02 pm

Stitch wrote:
george77300 wrote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the 777-8X is removing a door to be 4 on each side but the pictures of the -9X are still showing 5 doors on each side.


The 777-8 has four Type A Exit Doors (each rated for 110 passengers), which gives an Exit Limit of 440 (based on only four doors being available for evacuation).

The 777-9 can be configured with four different exit door configurations*, but I expect the one every operator will use is four Type A and one Type C which would give an Exit Limit of 495. That being said, I imagine most, if not all, operators will plug the Type C door, making the Exit Limit the same 440 as the 777-8. Emirates themselves have said the 777-9 will have a maximum of 440 seats in two classes [49J | 391Y].


*The four options are:

C-A-A-A (385)
A-A-A-A (440)
C-A-A-C-A (440)
A-A-A-C-A (495)


Thanks very much for that information.
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B712 B733 B734 B735 B738 B742 B744 B752 B763 B772 B77E B773 B77W
 
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reidar76
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:58 am

I made this table some time ago. The table shows seat width at different aisle widths, assuming 2 inch wide armrests.

11 abreast on the 77X is undoable. The 77X, with its thinner walls, will have the exact same seat width at 10 abreast as the 787 will have at 9 abreast.

On newly delivered Boeing aircraft, the 737 offers the widest Y seat. The 737 will have wider seats than the 77X at 10 abreast, given same aisle width. In practice it will probably be the same seat width, and a wider aisle on the 737. There is absolutely no chance of a 11 abreast 77X.

The tightest seat currently flying, is the 10 abreast A350s (French Blue and Air Carabies).

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WIederling
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:45 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
Now that the thinner wall of 777x has been brought up, I have an off-topic question. Does the thinner wall reduce the OEW? I could not find any information about the specifications of the new alloys.


More like the opposite.
If you reduce structure height you need more material to meet the same design criteria.
Murphy is an optimist
 
SCAT15F
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:04 pm

Exactly. If the 777X with its interior width could do 11 abreast we would have seen it a long time ago on the 747 WHICH IS STILL WIDER THAN THE 777X.

The 777X is 4 inches wider than the 777, the 747 is over 5 inches wider than the 777X, so no way can you do 11 abreast on the 777X.
 
enzo011
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:19 pm

intothinair wrote:
OA940 wrote:
IIRC the 77X was designed to have 10-abreast with wider seats than the 777, without it being 9-abreast 777 wide. AKA around 18 inches. So an 11-abreast version would be like 9-abreast A330's or 10-abreast A350's. Not to mention the exit limit.


Correct. Which doesnt make it unfeasible for an operator like EK to go 11 across on a 777X. With a substantial F and C class, having 11 across Y on 777X @ 16.8 inches width the plane would still likely come up short of 475 people exit limit. Just my thoughts. Lets see what Tim Clark will do.



I think the 777 at 10-abreast is already playing all the tricks to get as much width into the seats as possible. Thinner armrest and aisles that causes bumps into passengers when the cabin crew push the trolleys down the aisle. With the A350 there is some of this play as well, such as using 1.5" armrests already at 9-abreast, but the aisles are still wider (I believe) than the 777. So you can still take from the aisle to get space if you go from 9-abreast to 10-abreast with the A350. With the 777X there is nothing to give other than smaller seats that will not happen. We are all getting fatter, not thinner so trying to push in people into seats that are even thinner than airlines use now is insane. It will not happen.
 
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Polot
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:05 pm

enzo011 wrote:
I think the 777 at 10-abreast is already playing all the tricks to get as much width into the seats as possible. Thinner armrest and aisles that causes bumps into passengers when the cabin crew push the trolleys down the aisle. With the A350 there is some of this play as well, such as using 1.5" armrests already at 9-abreast, but the aisles are still wider (I believe) than the 777. So you can still take from the aisle to get space if you go from 9-abreast to 10-abreast with the A350. With the 777X there is nothing to give other than smaller seats that will not happen. We are all getting fatter, not thinner so trying to push in people into seats that are even thinner than airlines use now is insane. It will not happen.

A 777X gets 18" seats with 1.5" armrests and about ~17.5" aisles. The A350 has 18" aisles with the same 18" seats and 1.5" armrests. That (18") is the same aisle width as a 9Y 787 and less than previous widebodies like the 767 (19"), A330/A340 (19"), and 9Y 777 (19.25").

Most 10Y 777s today are 17" seats with 2" armrests and 17" aisles.
 
rbavfan
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:06 pm

TheLion wrote:
Don't you mean A380? Absolutely no chance on the 777X. It would be too much of a squeeze. The 777X is already maxed out at 10-across, even with its walls carved to supposedly allow comfortable 18-inch wide seats, let alone 11-across. Indeed, whether it really will be real-world configured with 18 inch wide seats at 10-across is also yet to be determined. And the "Instagram likes" part of your post was just silly tbh, if amusing.


They keep saying 18" seats. This is based on the seat with under the armrest, not between the the armrest. They have been using this cheat for a while to claim A320 seat widths. Based on this the A320 seat is 19" not 18" wide.
 
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TheLion
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:34 pm

rbavfan wrote:
TheLion wrote:
Don't you mean A380? Absolutely no chance on the 777X. It would be too much of a squeeze. The 777X is already maxed out at 10-across, even with its walls carved to supposedly allow comfortable 18-inch wide seats, let alone 11-across. Indeed, whether it really will be real-world configured with 18 inch wide seats at 10-across is also yet to be determined. And the "Instagram likes" part of your post was just silly tbh, if amusing.


They keep saying 18" seats. This is based on the seat with under the armrest, not between the the armrest. They have been using this cheat for a while to claim A320 seat widths. Based on this the A320 seat is 19" not 18" wide.


Interesting point. Thanks for sharing.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:57 am

intothinair wrote:
I would say if the floor width is being increased by 10 inches or more, this could work. Bring down the width from 17 to 16.5 inches and voila.


Where are you going to get 10 more inches? Boeing is pushing 4 more inches and that's as far as it goes.

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KarelXWB
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:05 am

reidar76 wrote:
I made this table some time ago. The table shows seat width at different aisle widths, assuming 2 inch wide armrests.



In my opinion you should include a column for arm rest width as Airbus only uses 1.5" on the A350 (and perhaps other aircraft too).
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Polot
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Re: EK going 11 abreast on 777X. Feasibility?

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:19 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
In my opinion you should include a column for arm rest width as Airbus only uses 1.5" on the A350 (and perhaps other aircraft too).

The A350 is the only aircraft Airbus uses 1.5" armrests on (for "normal" configurations).

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