jman
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:41 am

787 Operating Costs

Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:41 am

Hey,

I'm trying to work out the operating costs associated with the 787. I know you use the maintenance costs, crew costs, landing fees and the big one is the fuel costs. How do you work out how much fuel the plane will use per hour? What is the formula to figuring it out? And what about the extra fuel used for taxi, take off and landing, how much is each of those and how do they work out how much of those do you add to the hourly figure?

Also, what sort of a difference in the formula do you use when you have the BBJ787. Its the same plane, but can fly further with less seats but it would probably weigh a similar amount with the extra features you would add to personalise your plane.

I've tried to search for it but the only thing i can really find gives you a formula for Fuel Efficiency = Fuel Capacity / (Max Range * Max Capacity) and that works out to be 0.00882 U.S. gallons per kilometer per passenger.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 2157
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:48 pm

This is one of those, if you have to ask, you can't afford it type questions. I have seen the $11,000 per hour number tossed around but I have no idea how that was arrived at. To many variables in play without a specific operator and region in mind.
 
jman
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:41 am

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:09 pm

BravoOne wrote:
This is one of those, if you have to ask, you can't afford it type questions. I have seen the $11,000 per hour number tossed around but I have no idea how that was arrived at. To many variables in play without a specific operator and region in mind.


Thanks. I wasn't looking at buying one so the whole "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" thing doesn't really come into effect. It is more just for a mini project that I'm working on, but thanks
 
BravoOne
Posts: 2157
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:09 pm

I'm pretty sure there is a respository of this information within perhaps some ICAO data bases that in turn can probably be found on the internet. The variables could be significant between operators so that's where it become difficult to pin down.

Good luck and let us what you find out.
 
User avatar
jnev3289
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:45 am

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:48 pm

I've seen anywhere between $8k-$12k/hour. It'll vary from operator to operator obviously, so hedge accordingly
 
jman
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:41 am

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:53 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
I've seen anywhere between $8k-$12k/hour. It'll vary from operator to operator obviously, so hedge accordingly



Thanks for that. What i'm trying to work out though is the part where fuel comes into effect. I'm looking at finding out what formula they use to work out how much fuel they use per hour of flight, I've already figured out the rest of the maintenance and crew costings, now i just need to do the fuel component. But thanks
 
User avatar
jnev3289
Posts: 432
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:45 am

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:57 pm

3 years old but this might help: http://www.planestats.com/bhsw_2014sep
 
waly777
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:00 pm

jman wrote:
jnev3289 wrote:
I've seen anywhere between $8k-$12k/hour. It'll vary from operator to operator obviously, so hedge accordingly



Thanks for that. What i'm trying to work out though is the part where fuel comes into effect. I'm looking at finding out what formula they use to work out how much fuel they use per hour of flight, I've already figured out the rest of the maintenance and crew costings, now i just need to do the fuel component. But thanks


This thread may help, the last table seems to be pretty close to the mark.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1355819
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
gloom
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:38 am

waly777 wrote:


It's nowhere close. It could be the best "one number fit", but it's nowhere close to real mission planning.

BADA has much better tables, but they're restricted for eurocontrol. Since the project started as "free domain", v 3.0 can be found online at Eurocontrol:
http://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/defaul ... Tables.pdf

It's 20 years old, so many new aircrafts missing, including all Dreamliners of course. Sniff. But it shows just how the plane mission changes fuel flow (mass, FL alteration).

The other part of equation is optimum altitude for an airliner. If you find an FCOM, or similar document for a specified plane, it shows (usually) a table: plane mass vs FL, speed+fuel flow in every cell on the grid. It allows for some simplified fuel calculations (but pretty close to real requirements - they are there to help crew decide in some rare cases whether they need extra fuel stop). However, FCOMs are not publicly available, and hence need some extra effort to have a look at.

Cheers,
Adam
 
waly777
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:13 am

gloom wrote:
waly777 wrote:


It's nowhere close. It could be the best "one number fit", but it's nowhere close to real mission planning.

BADA has much better tables, but they're restricted for eurocontrol. Since the project started as "free domain", v 3.0 can be found online at Eurocontrol:
http://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/defaul ... Tables.pdf

It's 20 years old, so many new aircrafts missing, including all Dreamliners of course. Sniff. But it shows just how the plane mission changes fuel flow (mass, FL alteration).

The other part of equation is optimum altitude for an airliner. If you find an FCOM, or similar document for a specified plane, it shows (usually) a table: plane mass vs FL, speed+fuel flow in every cell on the grid. It allows for some simplified fuel calculations (but pretty close to real requirements - they are there to help crew decide in some rare cases whether they need extra fuel stop). However, FCOMs are not publicly available, and hence need some extra effort to have a look at.

Cheers,
Adam


From his request, he was looking for a very general per hour figure. The thread I posted gives him that information and it was compiled from multiple sources including FAA data, piano x and actual flown data. It is correct in giving a general ball park figure.

Sure, dispatchers will plan using more specific information depending on the mission being flown but that isn't what he was asking for.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
gloom
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:08 pm

I had a feeling he's asking for something more. He considered weights and landing/start, which then turns into stage length etc.

However, I might've been too aggressive on my understanding. Sorry if you felt attacked, it wasn't my intention. I just fell it's too simple to give any answer.

Anyways, topic author might now decide what approach he prefers (and needs).

Cheers,
Adam
 
jman
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:41 am

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:16 am

gloom wrote:
I had a feeling he's asking for something more. He considered weights and landing/start, which then turns into stage length etc.

However, I might've been too aggressive on my understanding. Sorry if you felt attacked, it wasn't my intention. I just fell it's too simple to give any answer.

Anyways, topic author might now decide what approach he prefers (and needs).

Cheers,
Adam


Basically what i want to be able to do is

1000NM journey
Fuel consumed per taxi minute =?
Fuel consumed take off =?
Fuel consumed per hour of cruise flight =?
Fuel consumed descent =?

6000NM journey
Fuel consumed per taxi minute =?
Fuel consumed take off =?
Fuel consumed per hour of cruise flight =?
Fuel consumed descent =?

I know that the 787 flys from as little as 30 minutes to as long as 17 hours, so basically i need to be able work out the fuel consumed for the above so i can get an average for each so that i can work out how much fuel is used for a trip of varied length and time.

I am also hoping to be able to work out what the difference would be between a regular 787 and a VIP version that can fly further with less people but potentially similar weight due to the modifications of the jet.

Thanks
 
waly777
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:18 am

gloom wrote:
I had a feeling he's asking for something more. He considered weights and landing/start, which then turns into stage length etc.

However, I might've been too aggressive on my understanding. Sorry if you felt attacked, it wasn't my intention. I just fell it's too simple to give any answer.

Anyways, topic author might now decide what approach he prefers (and needs).

Cheers,
Adam


My apologies as well, you were correct from his reply.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
waly777
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:20 am

jman wrote:
gloom wrote:
I had a feeling he's asking for something more. He considered weights and landing/start, which then turns into stage length etc.

However, I might've been too aggressive on my understanding. Sorry if you felt attacked, it wasn't my intention. I just fell it's too simple to give any answer.

Anyways, topic author might now decide what approach he prefers (and needs).

Cheers,
Adam


Basically what i want to be able to do is

1000NM journey
Fuel consumed per taxi minute =?
Fuel consumed take off =?
Fuel consumed per hour of cruise flight =?
Fuel consumed descent =?

6000NM journey
Fuel consumed per taxi minute =?
Fuel consumed take off =?
Fuel consumed per hour of cruise flight =?
Fuel consumed descent =?

I know that the 787 flys from as little as 30 minutes to as long as 17 hours, so basically i need to be able work out the fuel consumed for the above so i can get an average for each so that i can work out how much fuel is used for a trip of varied length and time.

I am also hoping to be able to work out what the difference would be between a regular 787 and a VIP version that can fly further with less people but potentially similar weight due to the modifications of the jet.

Thanks


You will need an FCOM for this sort of information tbh, perhaps you could reach out to some of the pilots here with access to that info. You could also reach out to sunrisevalley, he has access to piano x.
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
AndrewJM70
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:08 pm

Re: 787 Operating Costs

Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:25 am

JMan - the 787-8 burns roughly 4.6t per hour, the 787-9 roughly 5t so broadly speaking if you take the block-hours of the trip and multiply by those numbers you will get the mission fuel. Obviously this will vary by the weight so for a longer trip these figures will be roughly 10% higher. To work out block-time, again very boradly speaking, take the great circle distance, add 5% and divide by aircraft crusing speed. Then add an hour for taxi, climb and descent.

Fuel has dropped in price in the last couple of years and most airlines are now hedged at between $500-800 per t.

So as an example an 8 hour block time mission in a 787-8 at $600/t would cost around $22,000. If you take the BA config of 214 this works out at $103 per seat. Norwegian at 291 seats would be $76/seat.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: A330freak, Lpbri, n0ct and 5 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos