stefanie
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Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:36 am

Hi Guys,

I have the following questions about 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'.
Could someone please enlighten me about it? Thank you.

1) When pilots report aircraft Fuel Endurance e.g. 4hours, is the Reserved Fuel included in the Fuel Endurance of 4hours?
2) Am I right that 45 minutes of Reserve Fuel is mandatory for all flights?
3) Am I right that pilot will report Mayday Fuel when they have left less than 30mins fuel, and aircraft need to land as soon as possible?
4) What is the difference between Reserved Fuel, Minimum Fuel and Minimum Holding Fuel?
5) Do different airlines calculate Reserved Fuel, Minimum Fuel and Minimum Holding Fuel differently?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:48 am

1. Yes. Also, endurance is on the flight plan.
2. 30 minutes reserve is mandatory. However many companies have 45 minutes as a minimum fuel quantity at landing, giving a buffer.
3. At our company, if any further delay means we are likely to be under 30 minutes of fuel at landing, this is a "pan pan fuel" call. If we already know we are going to be under 30 minutes fuel at landing given current conditions, this is a "mayday fuel" call.
4. Reserve fuel is on the flight plan. 30 minutes at holding speed 1500 feet above aerodrome level. Minimum fuel is more of a target when you need to call ATC, as in threshold for pan and mayday fuel calls. It's not really something I've heard used operationally. "Minimum holding fuel" I've never heard of. Max hold time is always an extra number of minutes above minimum divert fuel or final reserve fuel.
5. Given the same aircraft, different companies would calculate the fuels in the same way. It's physics and regulations.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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zeke
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:46 am

Starlionblue wrote:
3. At our company, if any further delay means we are likely to be under 30 minutes of fuel at landing, this is a "pan pan fuel" call.


No that's minimum fuel see Ops A 8.3.8.5
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:32 pm

zeke wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
3. At our company, if any further delay means we are likely to be under 30 minutes of fuel at landing, this is a "pan pan fuel" call.


No that's minimum fuel see Ops A 8.3.8.5


You are of course correct. That's what happens when you don't double check. :oops:
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:47 pm

In the US, the final reserve is 45 minutes at 10,000'; which works out pretty close the the 30 at 1,500'.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:52 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In the US, the final reserve is 45 minutes at 10,000'; which works out pretty close the the 30 at 1,500'.


The domestic fuel rsserve in the US is 45 mins at normal cruise consumption. Many carriers use an altitude far higher than 10,000 feet.

For US international reserves, the regulation is 30 minutes at 1,500 feet plus 10% of the total trip fuel.

Now, almost all carriers have Ops Specs that allow them to reduce the 10% carried. The most common is B044 re-dispatch that allows a carrier to break the 10% reserve over two segments by designating enroute airports as your initial destination and alternate if required.

A few carriers have Ops Spec B43 that allows the 30 and 10% to become 45 minutes and 10% only when outside the service volume of Navaids. It allows most trips from CONUS to Latin America to be flown with a 45 minute reserve as most routes are within Navaid range throughout.

A few carriers have Ops Specs B343. This allows the carrier to reduce the 10% reserve down to 5%. So 30 mins and 5%. It can be used with B43 with the proper approval. B343 is being overhauled by the Feds and soon will allow for even more fuel savings.
 
stefanie
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:43 pm

I have better understanding now, thanks for sharing =)
 
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Classa64
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:52 pm

What are the penalties for landing or breaking some of these minimums, Is there even?

Is there any reported cases where the minimums were broken but the circumstances were extreme enough there was no choice.
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
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zeke
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:49 pm

Classa64 wrote:
What are the penalties for landing or breaking some of these minimums, Is there even?

Is there any reported cases where the minimums were broken but the circumstances were extreme enough there was no choice.


Worst case the captain and the airline can have their licence revoked.

The 30 minutes is only for the planned destination and alternate. If you divert on an ETOPS sector the reserve is only 15 minutes.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
LH707330
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:02 pm

Classa64 wrote:
What are the penalties for landing or breaking some of these minimums, Is there even?

Is there any reported cases where the minimums were broken but the circumstances were extreme enough there was no choice.

It really depends, typically it gets investigated to determine how prudent the planning was and how crazy the circumstance. If you take off with regulatory minimum and there's a bad weather area you know about, then you do a few go arounds before diverting and go below, you're in trouble, because that's easy to anticipate. Conversely, if you were a US-bound crew on 9/11, and all US airspace was closed, so you were in a hold for some Canadian airport for hours and everyone had a fuel emergency, then you won't get in the same trouble.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:15 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In the US, the final reserve is 45 minutes at 10,000'; which works out pretty close the the 30 at 1,500'.


maybe you can point me to the FAR that mentions 10,000'

domestic it's 45 min at normal cruise speed
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:20 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
In the US, the final reserve is 45 minutes at 10,000'; which works out pretty close the the 30 at 1,500'.

CosmicCruiser wrote:
maybe you can point me to the FAR that mentions 10,000'
domestic it's 45 min at normal cruise speed

If you can maintain normal cruise speed at lower altitudes, then good luck to you. Most jets that cruise at mach 0.85 at cruise altitude, would struggle to get close to that at lower levels where the air is denser. Hence you would fail the "45 min at normal cruise speed" criteria.
Conversely, if you are a Beech 1900 hopping from one side of 'Frisco to the other, you wouldn't even touch FL100 en route.
On that basis, neither criteria should be written in stone.
I was going to add a witty sign-off, but all the best ones have already been taken.
 
Calder
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:09 pm

Just gonna throw out the info I learned on the GA (general aviation) side of things ~8 years ago when going through ground school.

If memory serves, VFR minimum fuel reserve is 30 minutes.
IFR minimum fuel reserve is 45 minutes.

However, given I haven't flown in quite some time, there is a strong possibility that those numbers have changed.
C. T.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:00 pm

Cosmic Cruiser,

Just looked at FAR 91 and stand corrected, it’s 45 at “normal cruise speed”. A rather nebulous standard. I just used to the USAF 10,000’ standard.

GF
 
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zeke
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:11 am

ICAO defines the final reserve fuel as “the amount of fuel calculated using the estimated mass on arrival at the destination alternate aerodrome or the destination aerodrome, when no destination alternate aerodrome is required:

1) for a reciprocating engine aeroplane, the amount of fuel required to fly 45 minutes, under speed and altitude conditions specified by the State of the Operator; or

2) for a turbine engine aeroplane, the amount of fuel to fly for 30 minutes at holding speed at 450 m (1 500 ft) above aerodrome elevation in standard conditions; “

This is a function of actual landing weight. It is not 30 minutes of holding, it is 30 minutes of flying at holding speed, 30 minutes of holding is about 3% more fuel to take in account the racetrack.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:09 pm

It's comforting to see so many different opions on this:)
 
N353SK
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:37 pm

Classa64 wrote:
What are the penalties for landing or breaking some of these minimums, Is there even?

Is there any reported cases where the minimums were broken but the circumstances were extreme enough there was no choice.


The US Regulations say that "No person may dispatch or release for flight" an aircraft with less than the required minimum fuel reserves. There is nothing governing actual fuel remaining on landing. If you're burning into your reserves you generally have a very good reason, such as weather or holding. Sure, I suppose a pilot could be violated if he landed with low fuel because he was giving the passengers a tour of Mount Rushmore or he flew across the Atlantic 50 knots faster than planned, but that would probably fall under "Careless and Reckless Operation" vice fuel planning regs.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:47 pm

It's not uncommon for a FAA, Part 121 carrier to dispatch without the benefit of an named alternate, (No Alt Rquired), and in those cases a 60 minute reserve is pretty common. Some carriers designate a fuel amount in LBS for declaring an state of "Emergency Fuel" for the specific aircraft in their fleets and that takes some of the guess work out of it, They usually also provide a "Min Fuel" number to go along with that. Some of this stemed from the Avianca 707 that ran out of fuel while holding at JFK many years ago. Your individual results may vary.......
 
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zeke
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:38 pm

BravoOne wrote:
It's comforting to see so many different opions on this:)


Just 3
FAA domestic
FAA Flag
ICAO

BravoOne wrote:
Some carriers designate a fuel amount in LBS for declaring an state of "Emergency Fuel" for the specific aircraft in their fleets and that takes some of the guess work out of it,


There is an ICAO requirement that that a minimum reserve fuel figure to be published in the airlines operations manual (which is normally done at MLW), however for flight planning purposes ICAO only requires it to be for the actual landing weight. Under ICAO, ETOPS alternates only require a 15 minute reserve.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:58 pm

Just 3, You need count the different answers you have seen. ETOPS is a 15 hold. not a Reserve. You're mixing your definitions, but I know what you mean anyway.
 
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zeke
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:15 am

No, ETOPS under ICAO (Flight Planning and Fuel Management Manual) it is 15 minutes at holding speed (engine out and depressurisation), not 15 minutes hold. 15 minutes hold is about 3% higher than 15 minutes at holding speed due to the racetrack.


“allow the aeroplane to descend as necessary and proceed to an alternate aerodrome in the event of engine failure or loss of pressurization, whichever requires the greater amount of fuel based on the assumption that such a failure occurs at the most critical point along the route, fly for 15 minutes at holding speed at 450 m (1 500 ft) above aerodrome elevation in standard conditions and make an approach and landing; “

I think FAA is 15 minutes holding.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
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Re: Questions on 'Fuel Endurance', ' Reserved Fuel', 'Mayday Fuel', 'Minimum Fuel' and 'Minimum Holding Fuel'

Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:36 pm

ICAO vs FAA aka apples to bananas:)

Back to the OPs original question. Maybe this will help:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... _PHc27Xhw-

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