Hi there!
I heard about this operation to reduce taxi-out times and therefore fuel consumption and I am unsure if it is actually implemented in the US. Any opinions by US captains?
Thanks in advance.
GB
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
JFK does hold aircraft at the gate (at least at terminal 8) during peak traffic periods though it's probably not done for the sole purpose of saving fuel
When it's busy in ASE, ground control will hold you at the gate/fbo and let you know where you are in the queue for push off the terminal gate/taxi off the FBO apron.
When it's busy in ASE, ground control will hold you at the gate/fbo and let you know where you are in the queue for push off the terminal gate/taxi off the FBO apron.
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
@Woodreau Thank you for your reply. As you mention I guess it is part of the common ground traffic management and optimization.
My point and question is if gate-holding is used to an extreme where most departing aircrafts taxi practically uninterrupted until take-off, eliminating cues prior to the active runway.
My point and question is if gate-holding is used to an extreme where most departing aircrafts taxi practically uninterrupted until take-off, eliminating cues prior to the active runway.
-
- SaveFerris
- Posts: 76
- Joined:
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
In my experience it seems that gate holding procedures vary greatly from airport to airport within the US. Some airports (DTW is the first that comes to mind) have a quite organized gate hold system. Airports that are subjected to the gate hold are published on the ATIS and those flights are not allowed to push until close to their release time. Most other airports within the US though don't have a mandatory gate hold, if the crew is aware of an extended delay it is still their decision if they want to push and wait in a pad somewhere or wait at the gate.
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
@SaveFerris thanks for the info. Do you know how I could find out the specific gate holding procedures for LAX only? I found this website where you can listen to ATIS for LAX https://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=klax but it seems that they may not mention about gate holding procedures until there is a congested situation.
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
If there were gate hold procedures, the ATIS would broadcast "Gate Hold Procedure In Effect" but the absence of this declaration should be as assumption that Ground will not invoke hem at will. I travel in and out of LAS a lot and flow control puts up Gate Holds frequently for SFO and LAX arrivals. Not uncommon to hear Gate Hold Procedures in effect for ORD or JFK/EWR when departing LAS.
What specifically are you looking for regarding a Gate Hold?
http://www.myairlineflight.com/gate_hold.html
What specifically are you looking for regarding a Gate Hold?
http://www.myairlineflight.com/gate_hold.html
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
GBenosa wrote:@Woodreau Thank you for your reply. As you mention I guess it is part of the common ground traffic management and optimization.
My point and question is if gate-holding is used to an extreme where most departing aircrafts taxi practically uninterrupted until take-off, eliminating cues prior to the active runway.
The intent (per the book) is to limit taxi times to 15 minutes or less. It would be more likely used if there was some condition restricting all take-offs, or congestion on the airport. It could be used in conjunction with destination or enroute flow control, but crews are usually advised of delay times when receiving their clearance.
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
Two types of gate hold, arrival vs. departure. "Arrival slot" gate hold is very common for airports in adjoining states that feed ATL, esp. in thunderstorm season. "Departure slot" gate hold is more difficult to manage than "arrival slot" gate hold, since "departure slot" gate hold is typically at hubs, and gates at hubs are heavily booked... thus long departure queues at ATL, vs. gate hold.
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
Thanks for all the replies. @BravoOne, @WPvsMW and @MO11 I see that gate hold is currently used as part of the Airspace Flow Program (AFP), Ground Delay Program (GDP), and/or Ground Stop (GS).
The type of gate hold I am addressing is the following. For the sake of reducing taxi out time, e.g. aircraft lines prior to the runaway, traffic is held at the gate until a clear and direct route to the departing runaway is available. @MO11 pointed out that
However, the Average Taxi Out Time at LAX during 2017 is 18.57 min with an Average Taxi Out Delay of 7.11 min.
So the question is, gate holding for the sake of uniquely reducing taxi out time is implemented currently at LAX?
Thank you so much for your help so far!
The type of gate hold I am addressing is the following. For the sake of reducing taxi out time, e.g. aircraft lines prior to the runaway, traffic is held at the gate until a clear and direct route to the departing runaway is available. @MO11 pointed out that
The intent (per the book) is to limit taxi times to 15 minutes or less
However, the Average Taxi Out Time at LAX during 2017 is 18.57 min with an Average Taxi Out Delay of 7.11 min.
So the question is, gate holding for the sake of uniquely reducing taxi out time is implemented currently at LAX?
Thank you so much for your help so far!
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
GBenosa wrote:Thanks for all the replies. @BravoOne, @WPvsMW and @MO11 I see that gate hold is currently used as part of the Airspace Flow Program (AFP), Ground Delay Program (GDP), and/or Ground Stop (GS).
The type of gate hold I am addressing is the following. For the sake of reducing taxi out time, e.g. aircraft lines prior to the runaway, traffic is held at the gate until a clear and direct route to the departing runaway is available. @MO11 pointed out thathThe intent (per the book) is to limit taxi times to 15 minutes or less
However, the Average Taxi Out Time at LAX during 2017 is 18.57 min with an Average Taxi Out Delay of 7.11 min.
So the question is, gate holding for the sake of uniquely reducing taxi out time is implemented currently at LAX?
Thank you so much for your help so far!
No. The book says "objective....is to restrict departure delays to 15 minutes or less after engine start and taxi time". An airplane is considered delayed (for ATC purposes) if it is not off within 15 minutes after reaching the end of the runway (or theoretically, when an airplane comes to a stop in the departure queue). I'm sure that there are several taxi scenarios at LAX that could result in a 10+ minute taxi time. If the average taxi out delay is 7+ minutes, that's not bad, considering construction.
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
I really haven't experience gate holds at LAX. 15-20 minute taxis is normal. The taxi time and the fuel burn for taxi is accounted for in the scheduled block time and flight plan. Even with flow control to SFO or LAS from LAX, ATC hasn't held aircraft at the gate (in my limited experience). If there is an EDCT time, LAX still allows aircraft to push, and then ground control finds a place for all the aircraft subject to flow control to hold before allowing them to continue taxiing to the runway to get in the departure queue.
It's up to the airline (station operations and system operation control to decide when a flight is assigned an EDCT time to determine whether the plane will still board and push for an on-time departure (off the gate at or prior to D-0) or to delay boarding and push when it's closer to the EDCT time. One of the considerations is the tarmac delay rule where passengers must be given the option to deplane before 3 hours (or 4 hours for international) after door close, if the aircraft has not taken off yet. But that decision is made by the airline and not ATC.
In the case of ASE, if there is gate holding in effect, it's to allow ground control to sequence aircraft for taxi - it usually occurs before or after the holiday weekends when everyone decides they want to fly into ASE or leave ASE at the same time. Even after being held at the gate by ATC and released to push, we still find ourselves at the end of the line #20 for takeoff - which could still be about 40 minutes to an hour before we actually takeoff.
It's up to the airline (station operations and system operation control to decide when a flight is assigned an EDCT time to determine whether the plane will still board and push for an on-time departure (off the gate at or prior to D-0) or to delay boarding and push when it's closer to the EDCT time. One of the considerations is the tarmac delay rule where passengers must be given the option to deplane before 3 hours (or 4 hours for international) after door close, if the aircraft has not taken off yet. But that decision is made by the airline and not ATC.
In the case of ASE, if there is gate holding in effect, it's to allow ground control to sequence aircraft for taxi - it usually occurs before or after the holiday weekends when everyone decides they want to fly into ASE or leave ASE at the same time. Even after being held at the gate by ATC and released to push, we still find ourselves at the end of the line #20 for takeoff - which could still be about 40 minutes to an hour before we actually takeoff.
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
I think the concept you're thinking of possibly might be what ATD-2 addresses. This is a new implementation coming to CLT this fall. Concept simulation runs happened late this last winter and were quite successful. Check out the video below and let me know if this is what you were thinking?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQGtQ8V6bZY
Peace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQGtQ8V6bZY
Peace
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
@bomber996, this is exactly what I was talking about, what a great find! So this technology is going to be piloted at CLT, and upon successful demonstration it will be implemented in all of the US?
I am currently researching about potential strategies to reduce airport pollution, and reducing taxi-out times in the manner described in this video was one of them. The whole point was to absorb delay times at the door to minimize the taxi-out time so the minimum amount of fuel is burned and consequently, reduce emissions.
I am currently researching about potential strategies to reduce airport pollution, and reducing taxi-out times in the manner described in this video was one of them. The whole point was to absorb delay times at the door to minimize the taxi-out time so the minimum amount of fuel is burned and consequently, reduce emissions.
Re: Gate-holding: is it implemented in the US?
I was a part of the simulation runs at NASA Ames back in March. Implementation at CLT is scheduled to start this fall. My understanding is that this technology is already being used at DFW, but I cannot confirm. Really cool piece of technology and Next-Gen if widespread implementation actually comes.
Peace
Peace
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests