UAL747422
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Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:36 pm

Airbus is coming out with the A330 NEO in a few years. The 767 is likely on its way out. In my opinion, Boeing should step it up a notch. What if Boeing made another variant like a 767 500 with new engines and longer fuselage. Thoughts?
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TWA772LR
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:38 pm

They did. It's a good old fashioned 2-prong front with the 777 and 787. The final nail in the coffin for the A330 and 767 passenger variants will be the MoM.
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UAL747422
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:53 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
They did. It's a good old fashioned 2-prong front with the 777 and 787. The final nail in the coffin for the A330 and 767 passenger variants will be the MoM.


I know, but like a plane for transcontinental flights. Airbus has the A340 and A350, which is basically the 777 and the 787. But I get where you're coming from. What does the acronym MoM mean?
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BravoOne
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:03 pm

Middle of the Market
 
UAL747422
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:10 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Middle of the Market


Exactly. That's what I meant. Like the 757.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:37 am

UAL747422 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
They did. It's a good old fashioned 2-prong front with the 777 and 787. The final nail in the coffin for the A330 and 767 passenger variants will be the MoM.


I know, but like a plane for transcontinental flights. Airbus has the A340 and A350, which is basically the 777 and the 787. But I get where you're coming from. What does the acronym MoM mean?


They're not quite equivalent. The A350 is sized between the 787 and 777. The A340--300 was about an A350-900. The A340-600 is more like a 777-300.

The 350 is replacing both 330ceo and 340. The 330 will live on with the neo, but the 340 is dead as the 350 can do everything it could but burn less and cost less in maintenance.
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UAL747422
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:34 am

Hmm... good point there
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UAL747422
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:01 am

The 350 has a competitor, the 787. The 777 has the 340, and the 767 has the 330. Most likely, if the 330 neo is successful, it will replace the 767.
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:01 am

UAL747422 wrote:
The 350 has a competitor, the 787. The 777 has the 340, and the 767 has the 330. Most likely, if the 330 neo is successful, it will replace the 767.


The 350 and 787 certainly compete, but the 350 is a significantly larger aircraft, just like the 330 is significantly larger than the 767. The 330 replaced the 767 at least a decade ago.

The 350-1000 is the same capacity and weight as the 777-300 (non-ER). So I'd say the 350 between the upper end of the 787 line and the lower end of the 777 line.

The 340 as a product is dead. It has passed on. It is no more. It has expired and gone to meets its maker. It is a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. It's metabolic processes are now history. It's off the twig. It's kicked the bucket. It's shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible. It is an ex aircraft.

Unless Airbus offers some sort of magical deal on a new 340, the only reasonable business decision is to buy the 350 instead. The 350 is more capable in every way.
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:27 am

Starlionblue wrote:
The 340 as a product is dead. It has passed on. It is no more. It has expired and gone to meets its maker. It is a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. It's metabolic processes are now history. It's off the twig. It's kicked the bucket. It's shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible. It is an ex aircraft.
My post adds very little to this thread but well played sir!!

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KarelXWB
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:29 am

The A330 competes with the 787, not the 767. The latter is a smaller aircraft.
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seahawk
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:22 am

One should only look at planes in production

A330 - (767) - 787
A350 - 787-1000 - 777W - barely 777-9

A340 is no more as is the 767 in reality.
 
UAL747422
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:57 pm

True- it seems that all of the planes that Airbus makes (except the 340) are superior to their Boeing competitors.
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:17 pm

UAL747422 wrote:
True- it seems that all of the planes that Airbus makes (except the 340) are superior to their Boeing competitors.


True. Also False. It all depends.
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:03 pm

UAL747422 wrote:
True- it seems that all of the planes that Airbus makes (except the 340) are superior to their Boeing competitors.

They both have their markets.

The 777-300ER and 777-200LR killed the Airbus A340-600 and A340-500, respectively

The 787-8 and 787-9 can fly mission distances that the A330 simply cannot do and are smaller and lighter than the A350.

The A330-300 is more efficient on TATL flights than the 777-200ER

The A350-900 and A350-1000 is more efficient than the 777-200LR/300ER, at the expense of less cargo.

There's no simple "best plane" out there. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
 
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:07 pm

The 767 is an inherently inefficient design for today's market place... you're adding tons of structure for just 1 additional row of seats over an 739/A321, but still not enough belly to carry LD3s in tandem.

Wouldn't cut it.


UAL747422 wrote:
Airbus has the A340

The A340 hasn't been in production for 6yrs, and prior to that, didn't sell worth a damn. It's as dead as the Dodo.
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UAL747422
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:00 pm

True. I was looking at numbers and the 767 is kinda screwed, other than FedEx's big order. They'd have to probably make a new plane. The 797 is said to be a MoM plane to replace the 757 and the 767.
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:45 am

The title of this thread is to compete with the A330NEO.

We're heading into a widebody downturn. The A330NEO has only sold 210 examples including the 6 A338s to Hawaiian.

The only variant selling is the A339 which competes with the B789. Why is there a need to develop a new product? With over twelve hundred 787s sold and a substantial backlog and a new variant, the business case isn't there for a similar size product.

Right now the market is down sizing which implies the MoM. Or even dropping to the A321NEO.

I personally believe the A321NEO is going to occupy much of what would have been the A330NEO market.

Lightsaber
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:53 am

lightsaber wrote:
The title of this thread is to compete with the A330NEO.

We're heading into a widebody downturn. The A330NEO has only sold 210 examples including the 6 A338s to Hawaiian.

The only variant selling is the A339 which competes with the B789. Why is there a need to develop a new product? With over twelve hundred 787s sold and a substantial backlog and a new variant, the business case isn't there for a similar size product.

Right now the market is down sizing which implies the MoM. Or even dropping to the A321NEO.

I personally believe the A321NEO is going to occupy much of what would have been the A330NEO market.

Lightsaber

To be honest, I think A321LR could have done even better, if it had another 500nm of range. It would've been able to connect secondary markets in Japan and the West Coast, and even connect Seattle to secondary markets in Britain. Plus, it'd be able to fly from anywhwere on the East Coast to any airport in Europe
 
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:04 am

lightsaber wrote:
The title of this thread is to compete with the A330NEO.

We're heading into a widebody downturn. The A330NEO has only sold 210 examples including the 6 A338s to Hawaiian.

The only variant selling is the A339 which competes with the B789. Why is there a need to develop a new product? With over twelve hundred 787s sold and a substantial backlog and a new variant, the business case isn't there for a similar size product.


Developing the 350 meant creating a brand new aircraft, tooling, certification and so forth. Developing the 330neo is a drastically cheaper proposition. Most of the development was done two decades ago. You only need to design, manufacture and certify the changes. Even "only" selling 210 examples, Airbus probably breaks even at least.

The 350 is a great aircraft, but it is not a 1:1 replacement for a 330. Many companies don't need the added capability. They're looking for a smaller and lighter aircraft, which as an added bonus will cost less to purchase or lease.

By offering both 350 and 330neo, Airbus covers more market spectrum, while not having to develop two brand new models. The 330neo is a way to relatively cheaply compete with the 787. Of course the 787 is more capable, but it is also much more expensive. The 330neo (and ceo for that matter) have the added advantage of a common rating with the 350.
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UAL747422
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:04 pm

I didn't know how the A338 and A339 compared so much for the 787's. I thought Airbus was trying to create a MoM plane to compete with the 797. (Which is probably going to be replacing the 757 and 767). Yes, the 797 is not confirmed yet, but Airbus seems to have competed with Boeing's every move. Now that you guys mention it the A330 Neo is kind of a cheap comeback for the 787. What is the purpose of the 330 neo other than a cheap competitor for the 787?
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speedbird52
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Re: Should Boeing develop a new 767 variant to compete with the A330 NEO?

Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:46 pm

They already have: It's called the 787. The 787 is designed to do a very similar job to the A330, whilst still being able to compete with the A350. (Although IMO the current generation of the 777 feels like more fair competition with the A350)
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