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keesje
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Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:12 pm

The future probably holds more 8+ hrs narrow body flights, requiring serious rest facilities for cockpit and cabin crews. On widebodies, various underfloor, upperfloor and main deck options are available.

What are the options to accommodate 2 cockpit & 2 cabin crew members serious rest on 8hr + flights ? I know some airlines block passenger seats. The costs of that can easily be measured, real rest for crew seems questionable. What are cockpit crew rest requirements?

How do crew rest on TATL 757 flights, What will be on A321LR's ? Any new concepts / products developments? I guess you want to/ have to offer crew serious rest facilities without taking too much revenue space.. Creative solutions should be opportunities for the interior OE's. What's practical and meets the crew requirements?

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anstar
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:24 pm

Required crew rest is used to extend crews working hours. So even with the extended range the narrow body long haul flights still wouldnt get close to requiring bunks for crew. Flight crew will still only be 2, so no rest facilities required and presumably cabin crew will utilise galley jump seats as they do now.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:38 pm

anstar wrote:
Required crew rest is used to extend crews working hours. So even with the extended range the narrow body long haul flights still wouldnt get close to requiring bunks for crew. Flight crew will still only be 2, so no rest facilities required and presumably cabin crew will utilise galley jump seats as they do now.


The thread starter clearly said 'narrow body flights over 8 hours'. I don't know if that will ever happen, but in that case, the cockpit will obviously need a relief pilot. Whether it's in a bunk or an isolated business/first class seat would depend on the union agreements.
 
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Polot
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:45 pm

keesje wrote:
How do crew rest on TATL 757 flights, What will be on A321LR's ?

If needed they [will] block off and use one of the business class seats (and often block the seat next to it too).

A dense all Y 757/A321LR will probably not be flying 8 hours.

I can't think of any way you can add a crew rest in a narrowbody without taking up some revenue space. Whether that is a dedicated crew bunk or just using existing premium seating would depend on how often the crew rest would be needed. For narrowbodies, which may be flying a 4 hour flight after that 8 hour turn, that usually means its best to just block off premium seats for crew rest.
 
Iluvtofly
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:02 pm

Not sure why any crewmember would need a rest area for flights that short. When I was flying we would do Toronto Barbados and back in a single duty day and there certainly wasn't any time for rest other than a quick crew meal in a jumpseat ! We did a full bar service, full hot meals both ways, 2 X comp red/white wine with the meal, 2 X coffee/tea service, duty free sales and another comp bar service before landing. Crazy long busy days but because of being so busy the day went fast !!! Crews loved it because even though it was a 13-14 hour duty day.... we would end up with almost 11 hours flying credit and therefore only had to work 7-8 days a month !
Flown - B707 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 A300 310 319 320 321 330 340 Concorde BAC111 TU154 VC10 F27 F28 F100 DC3 DC8 DC9 DC10 L1011 L188 DHC6 DHC7 DHC8 E135 E145 HS748 MD11 ST27 CV580 S340 ATR42 J31
 
DLHAM
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:31 pm

When United still flew 757s to Hamburg, on the westbound flight, which often took more than 9 hrs in air (8:40h scheduled) they used to block the DEF seats in the last row of coach for the cabin crew. They used a curtain to separate it a bit.

In Business they also blocked one seat (two if available) for the cockpit crew. Eastbound they sold all seats as the flight only took 7:45 or even less. Now on the 767 I think there is also one Business Seat blocked and 4 coach seats at the very front of the cabin.
The 3 class 767 even has these 4 Economy seats within the Business cabin.
Last edited by DLHAM on Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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zeke
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:32 pm

A lot of new generation business jets have very long range capabilities, exceeding many widebody aircraft that have crew rests.
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flyby519
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:36 pm

I suspect crew rest on a narrowbody will be limited to first/business class seats. That should be sufficient for 8-10hr flights with augmented crews.

A designated crew bunk area would be a waste of space considering many narrow bodies will be doing shorter haul domestic routes as well.
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Tristarsteve
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:39 pm

Not sure why any crewmember would need a rest area for flights that short. When I was flying we would do Toronto Barbados and back in a single duty day

It really depends on where the aircraft is registered. Toronto Barbados and back includes a stop. No crew rest reqd.
If the flight time exceeds 8 hours some regulatory agencies, like the FAA, require an extra cockpit crew and a rest seat. Some. like the British CAA, do not. It depends.
When TWA operated JFK ARN, the 3rd pilot sat in business Eastbound, and sat in the flight deck Westbound. (He only got paid one way!!!). BA operates UK to Eastern USA with 2 crew without problems, The FAA airlines require a 3rd pilt.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:44 pm

8+ hours, it would be cheaper to negotiate with unions than invest in CRAs. One set with vertical rest should be more than enough. FYI there are lot of WBs without CRAs doing 8-9hr runs.

Blocked section of Economy Sleeper (like NZ SkyCoach) section could be an option. No NB going to fly with 189 passenger on 8+ hours trips. Sell few sleeper seats and block few for crew. No need to carry the dead weight of CRA.

Same narrow body can do short-haul at full capacity without any changes to cabin.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PI4EVER
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:44 pm

If available, the last row/s will be held for crew use to eat, sit and relax, read or just get out of the way of others.
On a flight I took last summer PHL-SNN, the crew re-seated me to a forward row when I was assigned the last row in Y.
I got a nice 3 seat row to myself in the front cabin and they appreciated the empty seats in the back to relax in when they could.
The flight was only 5 hrs 43 minutes so their time eating, relaxing, reading etc was limited after a beverage service, dinner, beverage service and then the continental breakfast service prior to landing.
If full, they make use of jump seats to eat and "stay out of the way" until a service is required, but most report flights from PHL and JFK are quick and the flight time goes by quickly.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:44 pm

Lots of widebody aircraft fly 8-10 hour sectors without crew rest area. Airlines block off a few (business class) seats for the crew.
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Whiteguy
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:59 pm

I believe Sunwing does have 3 crew on flights from western Canada to points in the Caribbean. It's not always about the length of the flight, more about the duty day itself...
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:02 pm

And then, there's this gem available on the market :rotfl: - reportedly fulfilling all the regulations.

https://www.assystem-germany.com/maerkt ... crew-rest/

All I can say, the day I see it on the airplane will be the day of my resignation.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:08 pm

8 hour 1 leg should still be legal for a single crew. You can get additional time by adding a 3rd pilot to the flight deck, but rest is not required.
 
727200
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:09 pm

NB doing 8-9 hour trips? How many of those are out there? That would be cruel to the passengers in regular economy seats; come to think it, anyone on a NB.
 
anstar
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:21 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
anstar wrote:
Required crew rest is used to extend crews working hours. So even with the extended range the narrow body long haul flights still wouldnt get close to requiring bunks for crew. Flight crew will still only be 2, so no rest facilities required and presumably cabin crew will utilise galley jump seats as they do now.


The thread starter clearly said 'narrow body flights over 8 hours'. I don't know if that will ever happen, but in that case, the cockpit will obviously need a relief pilot. Whether it's in a bunk or an isolated business/first class seat would depend on the union agreements.


Not really - I believe in the EU pilots can be a 2 moan operation for flights of around 10 hours so no crew rest required at all.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:33 pm

727200 wrote:
NB doing 8-9 hour trips? How many of those are out there? That would be cruel to the passengers in regular economy seats; come to think it, anyone on a NB.

Are the seats different on a NB vs a WB in economy?
 
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:52 pm

727200 wrote:
NB doing 8-9 hour trips? How many of those are out there? That would be cruel to the passengers in regular economy seats; come to think it, anyone on a NB.


I rather enjoyed the UA 752 Y cabin on a 8 1/2 hour flight OSL-EWR - no remarkable difference from flying 767s or A340s TATL. But, each to his or her own!
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keesje
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:44 pm

As DLHAM said, United put 4 economy seats in business. Blocking off seats seems a simple solution. But also an expensive one.

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/United_Airlines/United_Airlines_Boeing_767-300_B.php

I can imagine that when 2-3 class 4000NM ranged A321LR's become frequent Airlines will start looking for solutions. Maybe improving current crewrests from functional folding into comfortable seats?

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rbavfan
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:36 pm

zeke wrote:
A lot of new generation business jets have very long range capabilities, exceeding many widebody aircraft that have crew rests.


Business jet crews are not under the same regulations as commercial flight crews.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:41 pm

727200 wrote:
NB doing 8-9 hour trips? How many of those are out there? That would be cruel to the passengers in regular economy seats; come to think it, anyone on a NB.


Give me a break. We flew on NB jets worldwide for years. The seats are the same & the pitch is the same on a 777 with United or a 757 with United. So why would coach be cruel to passengers in regular Economy only on the NB aircraft?
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:49 pm

DLHAM wrote:
When United still flew 757s to Hamburg, on the westbound flight, which often took more than 9 hrs in air (8:40h scheduled) they used to block the DEF seats in the last row of coach for the cabin crew. They used a curtain to separate it a bit.

In Business they also blocked one seat (two if available) for the cockpit crew. Eastbound they sold all seats as the flight only took 7:45 or even less. Now on the 767 I think there is also one Business Seat blocked and 4 coach seats at the very front of the cabin.
The 3 class 767 even has these 4 Economy seats within the Business cabin.


UA blocks a seat for crew rest both directions. Even though flight like IAD-LHR only need two crew, duty time limits and the longer westbound departure has them crew with three pilots both directions. a business seat blocked as a crew rest both directions.
 
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zeke
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:00 am

rbavfan wrote:
Business jet crews are not under the same regulations as commercial flight crews.


As a blanket statement that is not true, there are other countries in the world apart from the US.
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RWA380
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:52 am

rbavfan wrote:
727200 wrote:
NB doing 8-9 hour trips? How many of those are out there? That would be cruel to the passengers in regular economy seats; come to think it, anyone on a NB.


Give me a break. We flew on NB jets worldwide for years. The seats are the same & the pitch is the same on a 777 with United or a 757 with United. So why would coach be cruel to passengers in regular Economy only on the NB aircraft?


Yup, flew JFK-GIG-JNB & back on 707's back in 1970, it was one of the roomiest coach flights I've been on.
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3/4, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777, DC-8-5/6/7, DC-9-1/3/5, MD-80/2/3/7/8, DC-10-10/30/40, MD-11, F-27, F-28, SWM, J31, D38, DH7, DH8, DH4 SD-330, B-146, L-1011-2/500, ATR-42/72, VCV, A-300/310/318/319/320, CR2/7
 
IPFreely
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:40 am

rbavfan wrote:
Give me a break. We flew on NB jets worldwide for years. The seats are the same & the pitch is the same on a 777 with United or a 757 with United. So why would coach be cruel to passengers in regular Economy only on the NB aircraft?


Looks like you've only been an a.net member for two years so maybe you've missed some of the threads. This board has a small but vocal group of nuts that think it is horror bordering on torture to consider being on long flights, especially trans-Atlantic ones, on an airplane with less than two aisles. It doesn't really matter to them that they'll only set foot in one of the two aisles and if the seat width, seat pitch, and even the seat itself is exactly the same -- it's still awful. Make sense? No, but it's one of the most debated topics on a.net.
 
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:49 am

The only thing I didn't like about my CO flight HAM-EWR was that row 4 was a little cold. But the BF seat was more comfy than on the EWR-FRA leg on the 777, and deplaning was easier.
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seahawk
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:04 am

If you fly over 8 hours the seating arrangement will leave space for an extra business seat to block off.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:28 am

Wait till they have CRJ's flying over 8 hours. They will block off the bathroom for crew rest!
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keesje
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:28 am

Could the third / instruction seat in the cockpit be replaced by a seat comfortable enough (with earplug/ eye blankets) to do a nap?

The cockpit should be reshuffled / enlarged a bit behind the pilot seats. probably make the jumpseat smartly moveable.. Add a curtain..

Image
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:18 pm

727200 wrote:
NB doing 8-9 hour trips? How many of those are out there? That would be cruel to the passengers in regular economy seats; come to think it, anyone on a NB.


Seats are the same. The percentage of passengers close to a window/aisle is higher on a NB than a WB.

On a all Y 189 seat NB 33% are in middle seats. On a load restricted long haul this % will go down even further.
On a 2 class A380 with 615 seats, 42% are in middle seats.
 
planewasted
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:20 pm

Why not a module in the cargo hold? I guess a narrow-body can't lift much cargo on these long flights anyway.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:49 pm

zeke wrote:
A lot of new generation business jets have very long range capabilities, exceeding many widebody aircraft that have crew rests.


There isn't one corporate jet , Gufstream or smaller, that has a crew rest facility or seating that would pass the FAA & ALPA requirements. For the most part they remain nothing more than a best effort to comply. Even the 737BBJ's are typically inadequate. When you move up in scale 757/767 and larger you have the room needed for significantly better designs.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:52 pm

keesje wrote:
Could the third / instruction seat in the cockpit be replaced by a seat comfortable enough (with earplug/ eye blankets) to do a nap?

The cockpit should be reshuffled / enlarged a bit behind the pilot seats. probably make the jumpseat smartly moveable.. Add a curtain..

Image



A lot of the 767-300ER have what Boeing calls the Xtra Comfort jumpseat. Very hard to get any rest and remain on the flight deck.
 
N353SK
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:49 pm

The FAA has three different categories of crew rest facilities for pilots:

Class 1 crew rest is basically a separate bunk room.
Class 2 crew rest is a lie flat seat in business class with a curtain separating the pilot from the cabin
Class 3 crew rest is an old "barcalounger" style business class seat that is not lie flat.


In augmented crew ops the pilots' max duty time is predicated on both the number of pilots and the type of crew rest available:
Image


I believe (but don't quote me on this) the premium seats on both NAI and WOW would qualify as Class 3 crew rest under US regulations, however have no idea what European regs require.
 
Blockplus
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:32 pm

united has a few class 3 737s they take up 4 seats from inventory and are used only on gum island hopper I believe. seats must recline 40°.
 
lat41
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:50 pm

I would be interested to know how rest was handled in the Gen. 1 narrow body planes like the VC-10, 707-320 or the mighty DC-8 which I beleive had the longest lets of them all back in the day.

Also, per post 36, is there really a "gum Island" or should we presume Guam in the Pacific?
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:18 pm

lat41 wrote:
I would be interested to know how rest was handled in the Gen. 1 narrow body planes like the VC-10, 707-320 or the mighty DC-8 which I beleive had the longest lets of them all back in the day.

Also, per post 36, is there really a "gum Island" or should we presume Guam in the Pacific?


Actually there is a Gum Island airport. A private 2500' grass strip in Texas- I never knew United flew there. :)

https://www.airnav.com/airport/3TE1

.
.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:38 am

To get decent rest, a lie-flat business class seat separate from other passengers by an aisle is the minimum. Not only the legal minimum in my jurisdiction, but really the physiological minimum. No way you're getting proper rest even in just a wider business class seat that is not life-flat (think US domestic first class seats).

At my airline, time in a business class seat is credited towards rest but not at the same rate as time in a bunk. This makes sense as being in the cabin, with service, people walking around, lighting and so on is nowhere near as "restful" as being in a dark and quiet bunk.

BravoOne wrote:

A lot of the 767-300ER have what Boeing calls the Xtra Comfort jumpseat. Very hard to get any rest and remain on the flight deck.


Indeed. It's not peaceful at all.

On patterns with two consecutive overnight sectors my airline will in some cases (depending on crew's body clock etc) roster a third pilot even if this is not legally mandated. Just to take some of the load off on particularly fatiguing patterns. If you're lucky you get a business class seat. Otherwise the middle jump seat can be pivoted 90 degrees and then reclined. You get a pillow and a blanket, insert earplugs, put on an eyemask, and put your feet up on the left side console. So now you're vaguely horizontal, but every time someone needs to enter or leave the cockpit you have to move since your legs are blocking passage. Another option is to make a nest of blankets and pillows on the floor behind the FO seat. Either way not ideal and not legally a rest seat in our jurisdiction.
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jetstar
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:46 am

rbavfan wrote:
zeke wrote:
A lot of new generation business jets have very long range capabilities, exceeding many widebody aircraft that have crew rests.


Business jet crews are not under the same regulations as commercial flight crews.



Long range corporate jets, which can have a range of up to 15 hours usually have a small crew rest compartment just aft of the cockpit which has a seat that can extend to a bed, also they have a small galley and a small lav for crew use, this way they do not have to disturb the passengers, who probably will be sleeping sometime during the trip if any of the crew needs to go to the aft lav.

Corporate jets, if they are not being operated as a charter operate under Part 91 which is less stringent than the airlines Part 121 regulations.

JetStar
 
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keesje
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:16 am

Privatair 737 crewrest (SAS flights)

Image

As Starlionblue describes on the 767 airlines have been implementing solutions, good or bad as they may seem, often neither efficient or very effective.

An A321LR and probably MoM will be doing lonegr flights on a more structural basis. Maybe expanding the cockpit with say 20 inch behind the pilot seat on one site to create something comfy, dark & undisturbed could be an option.

On widebodies crew rests are below the maindeck. On NB's the height is very limited, 114cm. width seems sufficient for 2 flat beds but access should be so that you can enter from the top. Question is under which conditions this could be turned into an acceptable crew rest option. But than, 1 flat cockpit crew rest seems sufficient and 1 place for cabin crew is on the low side. Long NB won't carry much cargo so underfloor space seems available.

Image
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Starlionblue
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:34 am

[quote="keesje"

On widebodies crew rests are below the maindeck. On NB's the height is very limited, 114cm. width seems sufficient for 2 flat beds but access should be so that you can enter from the top. Question is under which conditions this could be turned into an acceptable crew rest option. But than, 1 flat cockpit crew rest seems sufficient and 1 place for cabin crew is on the low side. Long NB won't carry much cargo so underfloor space seems available.

[/quote]

On most widebodies crew rest is in the crown, not below the maindeck. However I don't really care where it is as long as it is dark and quiet.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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keesje
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Re: Long Flight Crew Rests on Narrow Body Aircraft

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:28 am

For underfloor, you would need a seriously sized entrance from the top. On a NB galley area, that seems a challenge already.

For cockpit it seems if you move wall behind starboard cockpit seat it would be possible to create something acceptable.

For cabin crew.. Maybe create two high comfort crew seats in a (slightly enlarged) part of the galley that you can shield off?
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