mattyfitzg
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Can an airline "lease" crews???

Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:15 pm

This might sound like a very stupid question, and as I'm typing this I realise it sounds ridiculous;
But are airlines able to "lease" crews from other airlines like charter airlines??

for example, could an Airline like Jet2.com or Thomas Cook lease a crew for a single flight from an airline such as Titan????



Thanks
 
BravoOne
Posts: 1761
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:32 pm

Absolutely, Boeing will be happy to supply crews to supplement your operations, but most existing contracts here in the US prohibit that kind of activity.. As for the example you cite, that is unlikely for any number of reasons.
 
mmo
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:49 pm

Simple answer is No! Even if the crew was current and qualified in the aircraft, there would have to be training, line check and other requirements to operate under the new carrier's operations.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
mattyfitzg
Topic Author
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:55 pm

Thanks for your quick replies!

How about for cabin crew? Or would the answer be the same....
 
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Florianopolis
Posts: 215
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:19 pm

There are 31 flavors of leasing arrangements, and the airline will often be restricted by their crew contracts on how they can crew them. Otherwise all the US carriers would have replaced all of their crews with regional labor a long time ago.

Some details on dry and wet leases:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_lease
 
BravoOne
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:52 pm

mmo wrote:
Simple answer is No! Even if the crew was current and qualified in the aircraft, there would have to be training, line check and other requirements to operate under the new carrier's operations.


That is the simple answer but does not tell the whole story as there are at least a dozen companies world wide, including Boeing that are actively leasing crews or supplying crews to some of the worlds major airlines. mostly Asian and suspect you know that as well as anyone here on this forum. Like you said they would need company indoc, training on the particular aircraft, even if previously qualified along with regulatory approvals, just for starters.

The one time event as the original poster asked is impossible for all the above reasons and ditto for the cabin crews although in the past it was not unusual for airlines that code shared to have some commingling of cabin crews just to show the flag. Delta lost a flight attendant on the Swissair MD11 accident years ago who was doing just that.
 
edgaren
Posts: 88
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:32 am

Interestingly a few months ago here in Venezuela there was an airline that had an unusual and pretty shameful situation in which all cabin crew handed in their resignation letter collectively due to pitiful and degrading low wages, turns out a different airline that happens to operate the same aircraft type loaned its cabin crew, both airlines shared the same owner but operate under different air transport certificates, anyway over here the cookie crumbles differently than in most places so no surprise there.
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:25 am

In the recent EK 777 crash in Dubai, the F/O was reportedly 'on loan' from QF to EK.

These kinds of agreements between airlines happen from time to time, but as stated above, these are 'long term leases', i.e. 6 months or above, as it takes time/effort/money to indoctrinate a pilot into the operating carrier...
 
BravoOne
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:40 pm

I believe the F/O had either been furloughed or had taken a leave of absence from Qantas, not an unusual situation but as far as money changing hands between Qantas and EK, very doubtful.

Goog;e CCL Aviation, Richworth Aviation or Parc Aviation and you will get a feel for how this works.
 
MPadhi
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:42 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
In the recent EK 777 crash in Dubai, the F/O was reportedly 'on loan' from QF to EK.

These kinds of agreements between airlines happen from time to time, but as stated above, these are 'long term leases', i.e. 6 months or above, as it takes time/effort/money to indoctrinate a pilot into the operating carrier...


How does that work with ratings/training seeing as QF doesn't have any 777's?
 
lucce
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:03 pm

When AY moved the Embraer opeations over to Finncomm (which became Flybe Nordc and later Norra) they leased quite a bit of their pilots with the aircraft. They were later moved back to flying AY Airbusses when more senior pilots retired. Similarly the cabin crews on HKG, SIN, MAD and BCN flight are leased from OSM and Adecco.

Now they are leasing the cockpit crews for PEK, DEL and XIY services due to pilot shortages:
https://jobs.flightglobal.com/article/r ... ting-now-/

Not sure if its possible to lease crew for a single flight though. They need to go through conversion training to company specific procedures and equipment so it would take quite a bit more time.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:13 pm

MPadhi wrote:
thepinkmachine wrote:
In the recent EK 777 crash in Dubai, the F/O was reportedly 'on loan' from QF to EK.

These kinds of agreements between airlines happen from time to time, but as stated above, these are 'long term leases', i.e. 6 months or above, as it takes time/effort/money to indoctrinate a pilot into the operating carrier...


How does that work with ratings/training seeing as QF doesn't have any 777's?



Read my post, he was not "on loan". You need to stop believing almost 75% of what read in the press regarding aviation, and especially accidents.

It would make any difference as the new person would need to qualify on the specific aircraft via the EG training/qual programs that is approved by their regulatory oversight. You could have 10,000 hours in the 777 and you still need need to go through the hoops. Might a shortened course but still need to go complete the designated and approved program.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:42 pm

mmo wrote:
Simple answer is No! Even if the crew was current and qualified in the aircraft, there would have to be training, line check and other requirements to operate under the new carrier's operations.


It absolutely does happen, all the time. I know JetTime often leased out whole crews to other airlines, and it wasn't uncommon at one point to have Norwegian 737s operated by a JetTime crew.
 
mmo
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:35 pm

VSMUT wrote:
mmo wrote:
Simple answer is No! Even if the crew was current and qualified in the aircraft, there would have to be training, line check and other requirements to operate under the new carrier's operations.


It absolutely does happen, all the time. I know JetTime often leased out whole crews to other airlines, and it wasn't uncommon at one point to have Norwegian 737s operated by a JetTime crew.


It does not happen at all. Those crews are seconded to another carrier for a specific period of time, and we're not talking about a month or two. It would take on the order of 3 months just to get qualified. Many years ago, when I was at NW, there were several junior pilots who were seconded to KLM. It was about a 3 year stint.

When I was at SQ, we had some F/Os and Captains from SAS. Again, it was long term.

In all of these cases the crews were no longer paid by the original company but by the company they were working for. That is not a lease, it is a leave of absence from one carrier and a job from the second carrier. So, that is not a lease.....
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:30 pm

Along with what MMO just said ANA used a significant number of TWA crews when they started up their 747-200F operations. These pilots were employees of ANA on a structured leave form TWA, NO ONE turns a wheel at another airline without certification from the local regulatory authorities. Air Canada used Boeing Instructors on the 777 and guess what, they all did Air Canada indoc and a check ride before they could instruct and we are just talking about simulator instructors. Right now Boeing has Instructors at Korean acting as flight crew on the 787. They have done the proper qualifications prior to doing this kind of work.
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 394
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Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:58 pm

mmo wrote:
Many years ago, when I was at NW, there were several junior pilots who were seconded to KLM. It was about a 3 year stint.
...


I had forgotten all about those guys. I believe it was a small number, maybe 10 that volunteered to do that rather than being furloughed in 93' or 94'. When their number was recalled, they had the option of either staying at KLM for a career or coming back to NW. As I recall only one second officer stayed with KLM. The rest came back.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 732
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:04 am

mmo wrote:
It does not happen at all. Those crews are seconded to another carrier for a specific period of time, and we're not talking about a month or two. It would take on the order of 3 months just to get qualified. Many years ago, when I was at NW, there were several junior pilots who were seconded to KLM. It was about a 3 year stint.


In that case, you better go tell JetTime that. Their words, not mine.
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Can an airline "lease" crews???

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:18 pm

VSMUT, trying to understand your take on this but you seem to remain stubborn and unwilling to learn from others that work or have worked in this business. I will admit I had never heard of Jet Time before so I looked them up so as to understand where you might becoming from on this issue. It appears that Jet TIme does "wet lease" charters for several UK and European airlines. What they do not do is supply crews to supplement existing operators flight operations and therein lies the difference. Crews and aircraft, aka "wet lease" are a completely different thing as they would remain under the regulatory domain of the country of origin, in this case Denmark. In other words BA (fill in the blank) does not call up JT and say, "we need a couple of 737 crews for next weeks busy holiday schedules, can you send us over a few?". As much as you seem to want to believe this happens, it does not and for every good reasons. I assume you already know that a Norwegian licensed pilot cannot fly a UK registered aircraft without a UK issued pilots certificate?

I hope this helps you understand the way this works or in this case does not work. Chartering both airplane and crews is one thing but a crew alone to operate your particular airplane is not allowed unless it is as previously discussed by others earlier in this thread.

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