phugoid1982
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Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:02 am

Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:50 pm

Hi. This is only my second post on a.net so I apologize if this seems silly. I have been spotting at Logan for quite some time and have noticed that on days like today with westerly winds and runways 33L and 27 in use for landings why don't international airlines, who park at Terminal E close to the end of 33L, use a no thrust reverser, minimal braking application roll out to vacate at the end of the 33L. I would imagine the savings in engine life and brake maintenance would be significant overtime. Also, taxi times would be much shorter given vacating close to your gate, as well fuel savings due to less time trying to taxi back to the runway. Now, I understand spacing between landing aircraft would have to be greater to accomodate longer roll out times but I figure like today runway 27 (7000 ft) could absorb most of the narrowbody landing aircraft thereby minimally affecting traffic flow.

This also makes me wonder if this is more an ops issue for airlines who would need to approve this Long roll out procedure and request it individually from ATC or if ATC can advise airlines to implement it as a procedure. Thanks for all answers.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:43 am

There's no pre-approval process. It's just another clearance, whether given with the landing clearance, or requested by the pilots. It's no big deal operationally. Just keep it moving, meaning don't slow to 20 knots halfway down the runway if you're going to the end.

Examples of clearances could be, "Cleared to land three-three left. Take the second high speed on the right," or, "roll through to the end, then right".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
phugoid1982
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:25 am

Thanks for the reply. I assumed it was a fairly straightforward request. My question was more along the lines of i'm surprised I've not seen a single plane roll til the end given the perceived benefits i laid out. I assume pilots also get points as well for not using reverse thrust in helping noise abatement. I guess there must be reasons i'm not aware of why this procedure isnt implemented as frequently possible for terminal E carriers landing on 33L.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:41 am

phugoid1982 wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I assumed it was a fairly straightforward request. My question was more along the lines of i'm surprised I've not seen a single plane roll til the end given the perceived benefits i laid out. I assume pilots also get points as well for not using reverse thrust in helping noise abatement. I guess there must be reasons i'm not aware of why this procedure isnt implemented as frequently possible for terminal E carriers landing on 33L.


However you do it, allowing aircraft to roll to the end increases runway occupancy. At busy airports they'd typically rather you get off ASAP I guess.

We even get notices saying tower at certain airports wishes to emphasize the need to line up promptly for take-off once cleared to enter the runway. Runway occupancy is an important topic.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Classa64
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:30 am

Could "Exit runway when able " also allow pilots leeway when exiting? As in...they might run out till the end or at the nearest taxiway without being told specifically
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:25 am

Classa64 wrote:
Could "Exit runway when able " also allow pilots leeway when exiting? As in...they might run out till the end or at the nearest taxiway without being told specifically


"Exit when able" should be interpreted as "as soon as you can". You can roll on down the runway but don't expect to be popular with the controller. If you want to vacate later than "when able", ask the controller first.

On the 350 conversion course, we had quite a bit of discussion regarding the brake to vacate (BTV) system logic. When you select an exit with BTV, the aircraft will modulate braking so as to be at 10 knots around 60 meters BEFORE the exit. The perfect recipe for being yelled at by Tower. :D This speed target makes sense for a 90 degree turn off the runway but is far too slow for a high speed exit. The solution is either setting an offset so that the braking target is further down the runway, or more simply going to manual braking around 60-70 knots.

Used correctly, BTV will decrease runway occupancy time by ensuring the aircraft brakes less forcefully than a tradtional autobrake system if there is a lot of runway remaining, or even delays application altogether until you've rolled along for a bit. Basically you're moving at a higher speed for longer if you have a long way to go to the exit. The projected runway occupancy time is conveniently displayed to the pilots.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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ro1960
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:33 pm

[quote="phugoid1982" I assume pilots also get points as well for not using reverse thrust in helping noise abatement. [/quote]

Some airports have such noise abatement procedure. For example at NCE late evening flights (not sure from what time on) land on the South runway (04R, the farthest from the city) with no reverse thrust

A little off topic, at the same airport, a painted sign on the GA tarmac warns to turn off engine and APU or you will be fine €20,000!
https://www.google.fr/maps/place/A%C3%A9roport+Nice+C%C3%B4te+d'Azur/@43.6718571,7.2283183,113m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x12cdd11897ae99f3:0x80532b1cc923c1b4!8m2!3d43.6597689!4d7.2148214
 
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rjsampson
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:30 pm

Funny you mention this. I happened upon a YouTube video from an (actually funded!) researcher who proposed this solution:

http://goo.gl/N5FELz

I had hoped it was an April Fool's joke. Sadly, it was not.

This video was on BBC news. It has to be seen, to believed. :crazy:
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
shamrock137
Posts: 266
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:25 pm

phugoid1982 wrote:
I guess there must be reasons i'm not aware of why this procedure isnt implemented as frequently possible for terminal E carriers landing on 33L.


Total guess but looking at the layout, might have to do with space constraints. If you have 2 planes push from terminal E, and one rolling off the runway at Z or L there might not be enough wingtip clearance. From what I have seen large aircraft don't use A so the options of ATC are pretty limited. As others have said though, probably a spacing issue with other landing aircraft, they want the runway open asap.
Time to spare? Go by air!
 
Redbellyguppy
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:04 am

Rolling to the end of, say, 16L at DEN is super convenient for getting to your gate but you had better have permission from ATC before trying that little stunt. If there's no volume they all grant it but usually they are planning on your exit as soon as practical.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:26 am

phugoid1982 wrote:
I assume pilots also get points as well for not using reverse thrust in helping noise abatement.


Some airports have such noise abatement procedure. For example at NCE late evening flights (not sure from what time on) land on the South runway (04R, the farthest from the city) with no reverse thrust

A little off topic, at the same airport, a painted sign on the GA tarmac warns to turn off engine and APU or you will be fine €20,000!
https://www.google.fr/maps/place/A%C3%A9roport+Nice+C%C3%B4te+d'Azur/@43.6718571,7.2283183,113m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x12cdd11897ae99f3:0x80532b1cc923c1b4!8m2!3d43.6597689!4d7.2148214[/quote]
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

Re: Boston Logan airport Runway 33L international flights rolling til end of runway

Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:55 pm

phugoid1982 wrote:
Now, I understand spacing between landing aircraft would have to be greater to accomodate longer roll out times but I figure like today runway 27 (7000 ft) could absorb most of the narrowbody landing aircraft thereby minimally affecting traffic flow.


When you're landing on crossing runways, spacing on one approach affects spacing on the other, so you'd have to increase spacing on 27 as well, which would limit its ability to absorb the overflow.
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