MileHFL400
Topic Author
Posts: 128
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B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:39 pm

Just browsing through Flightradar24 I can see a Cathay Pacific B747-400ERF at 45,000 feet over Bangladesh at 519kts. Could this be an error?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
76er
Posts: 478
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:48 pm

No error. The 747-400 service ceiling is FL451. An empty freighter with a light fuel load will have no problem with FL450.
 
b747400erf
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:49 pm

That is the max cruise altitude of the -400ERF when empty.
 
anshabhi
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:52 pm

Image

CX40 from Mumbai to Hong Kong https://fr24.com/CPA40/ce3d5fe
Save your taste and innocent souls! http://www.chooseveg.in
 
727200
Posts: 79
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:05 pm

Looks like the 'old girl' still has some life left in her.
 
iRISH251
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:06 pm

We have had threads here before on this general subject. I witnessed an AF B744 many years ago climb to FL450 on a ferry flight DUB-CDG, so it does happen occasionally. In recent times I have observed several Star Air B762Fs at FL430 when on ferry flights to or from SNN for maintenance.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:06 pm

Occasionally freighters will fly almost completely empty. Unlike people carrying passenger planes, there are many unidirectional freight routes. The 747 has a high maximum cruising altitude because this allows the plane to pretty much fly direct any where they want to go without worrrying about traffic. No one else is up at 45,000ft and very few are at 43,000ft so more direct routes are an option. Without cargo, the 747 has no problem flying above 40,000ft although it is pretty rare where 45,000ft would be the optimal altitude for fuel burn. Usually it is flying up there to get more direct routes. Conversely when fully loaded a 744F is only going to climb to 29,000ft until some fuel burns off.
 
MileHFL400
Topic Author
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:11 pm

On the same subject i often see quite a few B787's up at FL430, is this good for fuel burn?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
leleko747
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:11 pm

727200 wrote:
Looks like the 'old girl' still has some life left in her.


This particular frame, B-LIA, was manufactured in 2008... so not old at all :bouncy:
 
ikolkyo
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:43 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
On the same subject i often see quite a few B787's up at FL430, is this good for fuel burn?


Higher cruise usually equals better fuel burn.
 
b747400erf
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:27 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
On the same subject i often see quite a few B787's up at FL430, is this good for fuel burn?

Due to the wing design and engines the 787 series has a higher cruise altitude even if at max weight than older models. The 747 freighters are much lighter when empty than passenger 747s so they have higher cruising altitudes when empty.
 
reltney
Posts: 270
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:59 pm

It's a Boeing...... It's always above the rest.
Been at FL 450 many times. It's got the umph to get there when lite. Also done a 17 hr flight. I started at FL300 at 870k and up to FL 420 at the end of the flight where it really sips fuel. Been FL430 in the 767. Love to try the 787 or 777-9 . 350 should make those altitudes with its wing and power. Planes cruse higher and higher. B and A new generation jumbos should be high altitude planes with current tech. Anyone know the C100/300 max altitudes with the geared engine?
I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
MileHFL400
Topic Author
Posts: 128
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:02 pm

reltney wrote:
It's a Boeing...... It's always above the rest.
Been at FL 450 many times. It's got the umph to get there when lite. Also done a 17 hr flight. I started at FL300 at 870k and up to FL 420 at the end of the flight where it really sips fuel. Been FL430 in the 767. Love to try the 787 or 777-9 . 350 should make those altitudes with its wing and power. Planes cruse higher and higher. B and A new generation jumbos should be high altitude planes with current tech. Anyone know the C100/300 max altitudes with the geared engine?



A 767 at 430?!!
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
b747400erf
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:08 pm

reltney wrote:
It's a Boeing...... It's always above the rest.
Been at FL 450 many times. It's got the umph to get there when lite. Also done a 17 hr flight. I started at FL300 at 870k and up to FL 420 at the end of the flight where it really sips fuel. Been FL430 in the 767. Love to try the 787 or 777-9 . 350 should make those altitudes with its wing and power. Planes cruse higher and higher. B and A new generation jumbos should be high altitude planes with current tech. Anyone know the C100/300 max altitudes with the geared engine?

FL420? That has to have been before RVSM or you remembered the wrong flight level.
 
AA737-823
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:47 pm

I flown on PAX 762's at 410.
And 420 is doable- all you have to do is ask.
 
jarheadk5
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:00 am

Been to FL410/420 many times in the KC-10. Just as Starlionblue said about the A350, that last step climb is slow... but doable.
-Boom stowed, leaving position.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:39 am

(Correction to earlier post.)

The A350 max altitude is 43100.

On a typical routing, we'll cruise several thousand feet higher than a 330 or 777. Great when asking for shortcuts.

That last step climb tends to be pretty darned slow though.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
benbeny
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:15 am

That's where business jets lingers :o
Anyway, if you have better wind up there but your optimal cruise is lower, do you climb or stay on the current altitude (considering you're capable, anyway)?
 
Virginblue4
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:19 am

B-LIA is back up at FL450 operating between MAA-HKG currently over Thailand.
738 744 752 762 763 764 320 321 332 Q400
BE BY DL MT PC VS ZB 6Y
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:30 pm

b747400erf wrote:
reltney wrote:
It's a Boeing...... It's always above the rest.
Been at FL 450 many times. It's got the umph to get there when lite. Also done a 17 hr flight. I started at FL300 at 870k and up to FL 420 at the end of the flight where it really sips fuel. Been FL430 in the 767. Love to try the 787 or 777-9 . 350 should make those altitudes with its wing and power. Planes cruse higher and higher. B and A new generation jumbos should be high altitude planes with current tech. Anyone know the C100/300 max altitudes with the geared engine?

FL420? That has to have been before RVSM or you remembered the wrong flight level.

RVSM has nothing to do with how high you can fly an airplane. Its just separation requirements.
 
b747400erf
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:33 pm

OneSexyL1011 wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
reltney wrote:
It's a Boeing...... It's always above the rest.
Been at FL 450 many times. It's got the umph to get there when lite. Also done a 17 hr flight. I started at FL300 at 870k and up to FL 420 at the end of the flight where it really sips fuel. Been FL430 in the 767. Love to try the 787 or 777-9 . 350 should make those altitudes with its wing and power. Planes cruse higher and higher. B and A new generation jumbos should be high altitude planes with current tech. Anyone know the C100/300 max altitudes with the geared engine?

FL420? That has to have been before RVSM or you remembered the wrong flight level.

RVSM has nothing to do with how high you can fly an airplane. Its just separation requirements.

RVSM separation above FL410 is 2000 feet, not 1000. You do the maths.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:35 pm

Cleared F410B430 and stay at F420 due to aircraft limitation.. Simples

GF
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:42 pm

b747400erf wrote:
That is the max cruise altitude of the -400ERF when empty.


What's the approximate maximum range when empty?
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:32 am

b747400erf wrote:
OneSexyL1011 wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
FL420? That has to have been before RVSM or you remembered the wrong flight level.

RVSM has nothing to do with how high you can fly an airplane. Its just separation requirements.

RVSM separation above FL410 is 2000 feet, not 1000. You do the maths.

That doesn't mean you cant get a cleared altitude block for FL420. (410-430)
I understand that 410 is easterly then 430 becomes west, 450 east...etc in Non-RVSM airspace. However in remote areas getting 420 isn't out of the question if the controller/controlling agency allows it.
 
estorilm
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:36 pm

It's probably important to note that bringing up the 350 or other modern liners is somewhat irrelevant in this context, given that we're discussing an aircraft which is in a config that the 350 can't match (ie empty freight config, with seemingly very little payload also) - perhaps a ferry run as well to get more cargo.

350s run pax routes, so would be compared to typical -400 ops.

As far as certifications go - Boeing knew they'd have freighters and the SPs running light loads or ferry routes for cargo, their operators count on this regime of flight / performance to keep efficiency up.

Flip side, it's completely pointless for a frame that probably won't ever have a cargo short haul / performance variant.

In other words, pax variants in typical pax ops of -400 would be similar to altitudes used in 350s, other modern twins etc.

It is kinda cool to see though - that's waaaay up there.

Wasn't the YAL-1 routinely up around / above that? It's a -400F variant though probably has significant weight increases over a ferrying civilian 400F. Although I guess if it's not civilian and labeled "experimental" it probably doesn't matter what the certs say.
 
flyDTW1992
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:27 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
That is the max cruise altitude of the -400ERF when empty.


What's the approximate maximum range when empty?

Max fuel capacity is 382,000 lbs. Based on that, a rough figure would be 16-17 hours worth of range. Longest I've seen ours do was closer to 14 hours, but it wasn't maxed out.
Now you're flying smart
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:04 am

Noticed an EK 744ERF at FL450 SYD-AKL last week. Was positioning to pick up a load ex AKL.
 
Qantas744er
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:35 pm

flyDTW1992 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
That is the max cruise altitude of the -400ERF when empty.


What's the approximate maximum range when empty?

Max fuel capacity is 382,000 lbs. Based on that, a rough figure would be 16-17 hours worth of range. Longest I've seen ours do was closer to 14 hours, but it wasn't maxed out.


The -400F/ERF dont have the HST tanks (optional on the -400), so about 20,000lbs less in MAX fuel capacity. However, this is offset by the significantly lower OEW/DOW.
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
MPadhi
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Re: B747F at FL450?!

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:53 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
That is the max cruise altitude of the -400ERF when empty.


What's the approximate maximum range when empty?


I know it's not what you asked, but it reminded me of this interesting read: http://aussieairliners.org/b-747/vh-oja ... story.html :)

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