DTWSAN
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aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:17 am

what situations would it be worth igt?
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:55 am

One If the pilots have serious doubts about the aircraft's ability to fly. For example if all engines quit or if there's an obvious severe structural issue. The situation would have to be pretty dire. Rejecting after V1 is very bad feng shui.

Side note: "abort" is not a very common term in aviation. We would "reject" the take-off.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
OzzyPirate
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:00 am

In short, if the aircraft is unsafe or unable to fly. In other words, incapable of sustained flight.

Post-V1 rejects should not form part of any normal takeoff brief or considerations. I see a worrying number of discussions between supposedly experienced pilots on this topic, normally starting with "if you've got a really long runway and you know you'll stop...". The V1 speed exists for a reason, and is not open to interpretation.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:20 am

OzzyPirate wrote:
In short, if the aircraft is unsafe or unable to fly. In other words, incapable of sustained flight.

Post-V1 rejects should not form part of any normal takeoff brief or considerations. I see a worrying number of discussions between supposedly experienced pilots on this topic, normally starting with "if you've got a really long runway and you know you'll stop...". The V1 speed exists for a reason, and is not open to interpretation.


Well, "if you've got a really long runway and you know you'll stop..." then V1 = Vr so the point is moot. :D

But yes, you are right. The likelihood of a dual engine failure or some other such event after V1 is so low that you're adding risk to the take-off by briefing it and inserting doubt.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
OzzyPirate
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:38 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Well, "if you've got a really long runway and you know you'll stop..." then V1 = Vr so the point is moot.


Point taken but it's still discussed: V1 has been called (and the silent decision to go has been made) and as Rotate is called a fire bell goes off. You've still got 2.5km of runway ahead and you haven't rotated, do you reject?

The answer is of course no, but this is the kind of discussion I'm seeing.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:52 am

OzzyPirate wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Well, "if you've got a really long runway and you know you'll stop..." then V1 = Vr so the point is moot.


Point taken but it's still discussed: V1 has been called (and the silent decision to go has been made) and as Rotate is called a fire bell goes off. You've still got 2.5km of runway ahead and you haven't rotated, do you reject?

The answer is of course no, but this is the kind of discussion I'm seeing.


On Boeing airplanes the alerts are inhibited at various points during takeoff. The Fire Bell is inhibited from V1 to 400 feet, IIRC. So your scenario wouldn't happen and there's a good reason for it.

Boeing manuals state the only reason you ever reject above V1 is if in the Captain's judgement the airplane is incapable of safe flight. This is consistent with what the experienced pilots on this thread have stated.
 
OzzyPirate
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:06 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
Boeing manuals state the only reason you ever reject above V1 is if in the Captain's judgement the airplane is incapable of safe flight. This is consistent with what the experienced pilots on this thread have stated.


Yes, including me.

If you read back, I'm giving a vague non specific example of the types of disturbing discussions I'm reading on forums lately. Replace fire bell with engine failure, I'm not getting into the fine details, just a general point that there are a few pilots out there who seem to think that V1 is up for discussion if there's lots of runway ahead.

And since you brought it up, the fire warning system is not inhibited on the 737NG, which is the only Boeing type I've flown.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:02 am

OzzyPirate wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Well, "if you've got a really long runway and you know you'll stop..." then V1 = Vr so the point is moot.


Point taken but it's still discussed: V1 has been called (and the silent decision to go has been made) and as Rotate is called a fire bell goes off. You've still got 2.5km of runway ahead and you haven't rotated, do you reject?

The answer is of course no, but this is the kind of discussion I'm seeing.

:shock: :shock: :shock:
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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SaveFerris
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:36 am

Starlionblue wrote:
OzzyPirate wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Well, "if you've got a really long runway and you know you'll stop..." then V1 = Vr so the point is moot.


Point taken but it's still discussed: V1 has been called (and the silent decision to go has been made) and as Rotate is called a fire bell goes off. You've still got 2.5km of runway ahead and you haven't rotated, do you reject?

The answer is of course no, but this is the kind of discussion I'm seeing.

:shock: :shock: :shock:


My exact reaction when I read that...

On the 747 the fire bell, Master Warning light and associated EICAS message(s) are indeed inhibited from V1 to 400'.
 
OzzyPirate
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:00 pm

Hope you guys aren't aiming any of this shock at me directly. I agree with everything that's been said in this thread.
 
26point2
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:47 pm

Here's one... L-1011 rejected take-off after airborne. Didn't turn out so well. I'm sure there are others.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_843
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:53 am

OzzyPirate wrote:
Hope you guys aren't aiming any of this shock at me directly. I agree with everything that's been said in this thread.


Not at all. I'm as baffled as you are that this discussion is happening.

Certainly we can sit and discuss this sort of thing from a theoretical perspective, but out there in the real world a high speed reject is one of the riskier things we do. It's not something you really want to fiddle with on the fly.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
OzzyPirate
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:54 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Not at all. I'm as baffled as you are that this discussion is happening.

Certainly we can sit and discuss this sort of thing from a theoretical perspective, but out there in the real world a high speed reject is one of the riskier things we do. It's not something you really want to fiddle with on the fly.


My apologies, I misinterpreted.

Exactly.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:23 am

SaveFerris wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
OzzyPirate wrote:

Point taken but it's still discussed: V1 has been called (and the silent decision to go has been made) and as Rotate is called a fire bell goes off. You've still got 2.5km of runway ahead and you haven't rotated, do you reject?

The answer is of course no, but this is the kind of discussion I'm seeing.

:shock: :shock: :shock:


My exact reaction when I read that...

On the 747 the fire bell, Master Warning light and associated EICAS message(s) are indeed inhibited from V1 to 400'.


The 737 doesn't have the takeoff inhibits that the EICAS models do, so both of you are correct.

Advisory messages are inhibited from 80 knots to 400 feet. The Caution aural and Master Caution light is inhibited from 80 knots to 400 feet also (but no the Caution message text on EICAS). The hi/low COMM chime is inhibited from set of takeoff thrust to 800 feet (IIRC). Warnings are inhibited at V1 but there are a few exceptions on a few models. For example, CONFIG RUDDER is inhibited much earlier on the 787 and KC-46, at least. I'd have to look to remember the details.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:30 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
One If the pilots have serious doubts about the aircraft's ability to fly. For example if all engines quit or if there's an obvious severe structural issue. The situation would have to be pretty dire. Rejecting after V1 is very bad feng shui.

Side note: "abort" is not a very common term in aviation. We would "reject" the take-off.


Except for the military and former military trained pilots. Every military aircraft I flew, the term was 'Aborted Takeoff' or 'Abort'. It's hard to get out of your system once transitioning to civil aircraft operations.
 
113312
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:57 pm

A high speed reject is a tricky and dangerous maneuver and that is one of the reasons it is a decision tasked to the Captain. While most policy agree that a high speed reject, and certainly one near or past V1, should only be done if the aircraft cannot fly. Those are great words but very hard to assess in a moment of decision. Certainly, a collision during takeoff or a landing gear collapse could be considered. But even a significant vibration might not indicate a loss of flight capability but a problem with a wheel/brake that might hinder stopping capability. It's nearly impossible to look out of the windscreen, during takeoff, and eyeball stopping distance. That judgement is gained through landings where you are at landing weight and configuration. A high speed reject is really a max effort "hail Mary" maneuver where you do it 100% correct and hope you stop before the end. All too often, high speed rejects result from startle effect of a sound, feel, or warning light even though the aircraft is capable of flight. In reality, most reasons to reject a takeoff happen fairly early in the takeoff run.
 
BravoOne
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:40 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
One If the pilots have serious doubts about the aircraft's ability to fly. For example if all engines quit or if there's an obvious severe structural issue. The situation would have to be pretty dire. Rejecting after V1 is very bad feng shui.

Side note: "abort" is not a very common term in aviation. We would "reject" the take-off.


Except for the military and former military trained pilots. Every military aircraft I flew, the term was 'Aborted Takeoff' or 'Abort'. It's hard to get out of your system once transitioning to civil aircraft operations.


Keep in mind that some multi cultural, and non English native speaker operators like Qatar, have adopted the term STOP as just about everyone knows what that means regardless of their native language..
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: aborting takeoff AFTER V1

Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:58 am

BravoOne wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
One If the pilots have serious doubts about the aircraft's ability to fly. For example if all engines quit or if there's an obvious severe structural issue. The situation would have to be pretty dire. Rejecting after V1 is very bad feng shui.

Side note: "abort" is not a very common term in aviation. We would "reject" the take-off.


Except for the military and former military trained pilots. Every military aircraft I flew, the term was 'Aborted Takeoff' or 'Abort'. It's hard to get out of your system once transitioning to civil aircraft operations.


Keep in mind that some multi cultural, and non English native speaker operators like Qatar, have adopted the term STOP as just about everyone knows what that means regardless of their native language..


At my company, the captains says "STOP!" but the maneuver is a rejected take-off.

Did not realize about the military. Learn something everyday.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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