Bdlgr
Topic Author
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:04 pm

Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:11 pm

So I am 19 and was using a fake Id to get into bars but I got caught and got a misdemeanor obstructing by disguise. I'm currently at school to be an airline pilot. Is there anyway I will still get a job with it on my record? I didn't techniqually get found guilty but I got a withhold which is pretty much the same thing as no contest. Should I get a lawyer to get it expunged? Will the airlines be able to see it even if I get it expunged? Is it worth it to continue flight training? Thanks
 
BravoOne
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Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 pm

I wouldn't give up to soon. On the other hand, I don't this would get by Delta if they out about it somehow. If it's expunged so be it, but if not then you have hurt your chances. Of course by the time you are a viable candidate they may be taking points with serious felony convictions:)
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 1831
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:22 am

First, you might consider furthering your education so you get better at the grammar.....

Second, if you got a CWOP or similar, many states let you expunge that, on your own, with zero cost after a year. You can google around for the laws of whatever state it occurred in. Minnessota provides templates for you to fill out and submit for full expungement. Pretty easy.

If this is what stands in the way of your career of choice, you might also consider another career - as your life will present much more complicated challenges than this....
They're not handing trophies out today
 
FGITD
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:00 am

I'm not a pilot, nor do I work in hiring or any such thing. I work with rampers, who by and large are great people, but not necessarily pillars of society....

But let me phrase it to you this way:

Do you think every single pilot out there, from regionals to majors, all have a flawless, 100% squeaky clean record, their whole lives through? Of course there's a decent amount who do, but not all.

In short, a foolish mistake at 19 isn't going to ruin your life or career. Get it expunged if you can, to simplify things.

At the very least, flight training is always a thing worth continuing.
 
trav110
Posts: 548
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Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:24 am

BlatantEcho wrote:
If this is what stands in the way of your career of choice, you might also consider another career - as your life will present much more complicated challenges than this....


Jesus, drop this condescending garbage. OP is barely out of high school, adjusting to the real world, asked advice, and you come in here with that? Nobody, you included, has all the answers at 19.

Anyway OP, I would look into seeing if you can have it removed. Honestly outside of that there isn't really anything else to do. I wouldn't sweat it too much though, you're not the first freshman in college who got busted for having alcohol, and wont really reflect who you are by the time you enter your professional career. Stuff happens, just don't let it happen again.
 
910A
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Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:06 am

I worked with a United 767 (international) F/O who was found guilty of a felony. He was also one of those airline pilots with the weapons approval. My staff brought me the case, they didn't know what to do. First of all, he had to get a court order whenever he left the country which was going to be very time consuming for everyone, and the felon issue with the firearm wasn't going to fly. Talked with the victim of the assault,whom agree that he didn't want to take the pilots lively hood away, then I made sure the treatment the court order was completed, which he had done before the sentencing. In short, my reputation with a certain judge I was able to get the charges reduced to a misdemeanor and his life wasn't ruined. His attorney told him in my presence that he really needed to kiss my feet, because in his entire career he never seen this happen.
 
910A
Posts: 831
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:11 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:12 am

trav110 wrote:
BlatantEcho wrote:
If this is what stands in the way of your career of choice, you might also consider another career - as your life will present much more complicated challenges than this....


Jesus, drop this condescending garbage. OP is barely out of high school, adjusting to the real world, asked advice, and you come in here with that? Nobody, you included, has all the answers at 19.

Anyway OP, I would look into seeing if you can have it removed. Honestly outside of that there isn't really anything else to do. I wouldn't sweat it too much though, you're not the first freshman in college who got busted for having alcohol, and wont really reflect who you are by the time you enter your professional career. Stuff happens, just don't let it happen again.


Trav100 you are correct. A fake ID charge isn't going to harm him,(especially now with the pilot shortage) now a repeat pattern could cause an issue. My team had to supervise several HP pilots that were still flying after getting a DUI conviction in their private autos.
 
Max Q
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:43 am

Bdl.


You MUST get this expunged ASAP if you want to succeed in your ambition to become an airline pilot.
If it's expunged it's gone.


A friend of mine's son is a pilot for a regional carrier and the major airlines won't touch him as he has a DUI
on his record. Your 'offense' is very minor in comparison but you don't want to apply with that on your record
if you can help it, they'll just go to the next applicant.


The expungement process can take a while, up to a year so the sooner you get it started the sooner it will be done.
This is really a minor issue to take care of but it takes time.



Don't even THINK of applying to a major or ANY operator till this record is erased, otherwise it will follow you everywhere.



Get it expunged as soon as you can, use a good lawyer that specialized in this kind of thing and btw don't talk about this with anyone, what you did is no big deal but you don't want anyone repeating it and hurting your chances, good luck.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
User avatar
BawliBooch
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:56 am

Depends. Dont think it should be an issue if misdemeanour was not aviation related - but it would ultimately depend on the HR person at the airline/company you apply to.

At the flying school where I did my PPL, there was this madcap girl working towards her Commercial License who took out the schools Cessna for a spin to impress her boyfriend visiting from Delhi. We were given instructions to take the boyfriend to a embankment nearby while she did her thing. She ended up flying too close to a electric powerline on one of her passes and nearly crashed. The CFI was not amused. It went on her record. All the girls/guys in her batch got picked up on interview day - except her. Not a single airline was willing to give her a job. Even a job flying Dorniers for the Coast Guard didnt happen. Tragic - because she is one of the best pilots I have seen. One fun afternoon changed her entire career graph. She now flies King Airs for a private charter company and its not a secure job.

But your case is different: your misdemeanour was not related to aviation. And nor is it indicative of "moral turpitude" (another marvellous HR term!) like felony or theft. So it should not matter.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
N353SK
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:32 pm

@Bdlgr, here is a direct copy and paste from a part of the United Airlines pilot application:

** ANSWER THIS QUESTION HONESTLY, WHETHER OR NOT YOU BELIEVE YOU PRESENTLY SHOW A CONVICTION ON YOUR CRIMINAL RECORD AND WHETHER OR NOT YOUR LAWYER TOLD YOU SOMETHING WOULD NOT COUNT.
16. Have you:
A) Ever been convicted or is there now pending against you a misdemeanor or felony (civil or military charge);
B) Received deferred adjudication (even if your case was later dismissed);
C) Been part of any sort of diversion program in lieu of a conviction (even if your case was later dismissed);
OR
D) Paid a fine/ performed community service/ served any jail time?




Airlines value honesty and integrity above all else. Do not waste the time/energy on trying to have a conviction expunged. Almost nobody has a prefect resume - some have failed a checkride or two, and some have a slightly checkered past. This issue will definitely be asked about during any interview for the rest of your life, and it is up to you to convince the hiring team that you've learned something from your mistake and that you've tried to be a better person ever since. One thing I can guarantee is that any attempt to conceal your incident or otherwise not take full responsibility will be an interview ender.
 
KentB27
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:20 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:54 am

BlatantEcho wrote:
First, you might consider furthering your education so you get better at the grammar.....

If this is what stands in the way of your career of choice, you might also consider another career - as your life will present much more complicated challenges than this....


It's completely unnecessary to be such a jerk to him. Drop the attitude, buddy.
 
ual777
Posts: 1579
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:02 am

OP,

Don't sweat it too much. I know guys at the majors who had MIP and other stuff during their youth. Own it and learn from it. It's not a show stopper at all. Just don't do anything going forward that would add to that.

Get your four year degree too. Trust me.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Max Q
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:20 am

Bdl, there is NO advantage in not going through the expungement process and don't listen to people that tell you it's not worth it, that's nonsense.


You want to have the cleanest record possible, I cannot recommend this enough, what you decide to reveal is up to you, it is worth considering
that sometimes a record will show that an expungement was made without revealing further details.


But having it expunged will always be in your favor.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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zeke
Posts: 10582
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:18 pm

Have to agree with Max. I thought since AC 120-68 came in, it would be mandatory for your records to be obtained from the national driver registry, if the fake licence is on the registry it will come up as part of the PRIA search.

Also you should be aware that the FAA computers automatically cross check with the NDR and the National Crime Information Centre.

People have be caught in this process of giving false information on their medical applications and have been subject to administrative or enforcement action by the FAA.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BravoOne
Posts: 1761
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:14 pm

Just for the record here I have known several pilots who after having worked for airlines incurred a felony conviction and served a few years behind bars without losing their jobs. That was in the past, and as Zeke has written it's pretty hard if not impossible to hide that these days. Others have said to lay it out and tell the truth along with the fact that your learned at a young age that you need to take responsibility for your own actions. Believe me the airline pilot groups are not made up of pure as the driven snow angles so I think that will go a long way. Whatever you do, don't give up. A high GPA, no failures and maybe some community service will go along way to eliminating that obstacle.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2277
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:38 pm

Recently, the head of pilot hiring at one of the Big 3 spoke at a job fair and he pointed to honesty as one of the biggest areas where they're busting candidates. They know you aren't perfect and expect there's probably been a hiccup or two along the way. They want to know about everything. Every felony or misdemeanor, every traffic ticket, every failed check ride or stage check. Answer honestly and show them what you've learned from your mistakes and you will be fine.

Keep out of trouble with the law and this will be something you can use during an interview to show you improved yourself. I don't think it will hold you back since it isn't a serious offense like a DUI. After all, the people that do the hiring were once teenagers as well. I bet they snuck into bars or hid booze in their dorm rooms too.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Bdlgr
Topic Author
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:08 pm

Thanks all. I'm sorry for the poor grammar as when I wrote this I was in an emotional state of panic. I was very worried that I had spent a lot of time and money only to have to change majors because of one silly mistake. I'm a 3.9 student just about to take my instrument check ride with no stage or check ride failures (yet, at least). I will work on getting it expunged and when asked that on a job interview I will answer honestly and hope they give me a chance to explain that I was a dumb kid on spring break. Hopefully they will give me a chance. Thank you all for your responses. I have 100% learned my lesson
 
Max Q
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:05 am

A good choice Bdl, sounds like you're working really hard, great job and keep at it, success as a Pilot lies in professionalism, determination
and dogged persistence, start that expungement process ASAP, it takes a while.


No need to panic, your 'transgression' was very minor and you're taking mature and responsible steps to address the issue.
I predict you will go far my friend.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Bdlgr
Topic Author
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:48 pm

Thanks Max! Just an update, I got a withhold of adjudication so it is not a conviction provided I don't get in trouble for the probationary duration. Then I can get it expunged and see what happens from there. My parents told me it will be like it never happened and I don't need to disclose it unless specifically asked but I am still going to make sure to say yes when the box specifically asks have you ever had anything withheld or something like that on the odd chance they do find it.
 
MKIAZ
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:24 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:22 pm

N353SK wrote:
Airlines value honesty and integrity above all else. Do not waste the time/energy on trying to have a conviction expunged. Almost nobody has a prefect resume - some have failed a checkride or two, and some have a slightly checkered past. This issue will definitely be asked about during any interview for the rest of your life, and it is up to you to convince the hiring team that you've learned something from your mistake and that you've tried to be a better person ever since. One thing I can guarantee is that any attempt to conceal your incident or otherwise not take full responsibility will be an interview ender.


This is false. Once something is Expunged, it is GONE. You don't bring it up, they won't find it. It never happened. (the exception being in some areas law enforcement can still see it)

OP, get this expunged and never ever bring it up in an interview (unless you're interviewing for a law enforcement position).

In general, once sealed or expunged, all records of an arrest and/or subsequent court case are removed from the public record, and the individual may legally deny or fail to acknowledge ever having been arrested for or charged with any crime which has been expunged.
 
Bdlgr
Topic Author
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:47 pm

I can't get a withhold expunged. I can try and reopen the case but the best I can do is get it sealed. Advice now? I'm going to talk to a lawyer with my parents as soon as I get all the paperwork and facts but with this on my record is this a death sentence to my hope as an airline pilot? Even if it's not a conviction and has nothing do with drugs, alcohol, or aviation?
 
Woodreau
Posts: 1321
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:47 pm

Go back to question 16 above

Answer it in the most literal interpretation of the question.

It is either yes or no

(2) have you received deferred adjudication?

In any case most pilots I know answer yes to the question for all different reasons.

In my particular case yes to (2) yes to (4) and I am a an Airbus pilot (last time I checked)
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
Bdlgr
Topic Author
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:04 pm

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:04 pm

Thank you! You gave me a lot of hope in that you still have an amazing flying job. I'm really just overthinking myself into the ground with this one. Worrying is like walking around with an umbrella waiting for it to rain. I'm going to take care of what I can now and move on with life and my planned career path and keep working for the best life I can. Thanks guys
 
flymia
Posts: 6891
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:33 pm

You should be ok, it was a dumb mistake, that many do, but few get caught. First, I hope you had a lawyer for the case and did not make decisions yourself.

Second, don't seek advice about this on here, find yourself a criminal lawyer in your state and go with his/her advice and that is it regarding the expunge issue. I would go ahead and get it expunged there is no reason not to. You still may need to answer questions about being arrested, charged, withholding of adjudication etc.. Even expunged issues can still be found on certain criminal background checks. I am not sure what type of law enforcement searches the airlines do, but for jobs with the federal government, or for example background checks to become an attorney, everything is there, expunged, dismissed, does not matter, it is there.

The most important thing to do is stay out of further trouble, listen to your criminal attorney, and answer any application questions honestly.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
N353SK
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

Re: Misdemeanors affecting pilot career

Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:14 pm

I'd just like to point out that most of us who have advised to not bother trying to hide this issue, and to just own up to it and keep your nose clean, are pilots who have been through the airline hiring process multiple times.

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