cloudboy
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Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:48 pm

What is the smallest Cat IIIb landing capable aircraft? Will the Tecnam P2012 be?
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:27 am

Certainly not. The Falcon business might be on the EASA registration, hug doesn't appear to be on the FAA TCDS. Pretty much all autoland certified types are airliners operated by airlines. There is no provision for a Part 23 type for autoland.
 
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zeke
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:36 am

A helicopter.
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cloudboy
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:32 am

I thought some airlines could use HUDs instead.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
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zeke
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:17 am

I thought carriers like Horizon Air do Cat 3 with the DHC8 using a HUD.
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BravoOne
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:53 am

I believe that Alaska does a hand flown (HUD) CAT3a. Not sure about the 3b roll out though?
 
mxaxai
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:17 pm

Depends on how you want to use it. A Diamond DA42 performed an automatic landing in 2015 in Vienna. While I am sure autolands are possible using even CAT I ILS, you would probably not trust it to this point. Otherwise the results may look like this: http://avherald.com/h?article=445873f3/0000

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... and-system
https://youtu.be/RlaDeojkLcU
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:32 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Depends on how you want to use it. A Diamond DA42 performed an automatic landing in 2015 in Vienna. While I am sure autolands are possible using even CAT I ILS, you would probably not trust it to this point. Otherwise the results may look like this: http://avherald.com/h?article=445873f3/0000

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... and-system
https://youtu.be/RlaDeojkLcU


Just for clarification, ILS is ILS. There's no CAT about the system itself. Neither the aircraft nor the ILS transmitters know what the visibility is.

The gotcha with autolands in good conditions is that the protected area isn't being, well, protected. So the ILS beam is not "guaranteed" like it is when Low Vis Ops are in effect at the airport.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 6:29 pm

You can't fly any ILS you find to CAT III mins, it has to be a CAT III ILS installation and approved approach IN THE WEATHER. Just flying an VMC, yes any ILS will do.

Yes, there are some approved HUD installations for autoland with 121 carriers. Didn't know anout the Diamond, would like to know details on the equipment.
 
26point2
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:07 pm

Soon...next month...FAA is reported to allow CAT 3 landings to aircraft equipped with EVS. This would include many modern biz jets.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:23 pm

You need to read FAA AC 20-167A first, there isn't anything like "allow(ed) next month. The AC sets out the acceptable means of gaining approval for various enhanced visions systems and various minimums and verification standards. Anyone knowing the FAA approval process would realize this is gonna take awhile.
 
26point2
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:55 pm

Right-oh boss. You are correct. But to clarify...the approval process begins next month.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:28 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You can't fly any ILS you find to CAT III mins, it has to be a CAT III ILS installation and approved approach IN THE WEATHER. Just flying an VMC, yes any ILS will do.

Yes, there are some approved HUD installations for autoland with 121 carriers. Didn't know anout the Diamond, would like to know details on the equipment.


That's what I get for posting when I should already be asleep. :oops:

My point was the system doesn't care about visibility but airport operations being LVO or not is very relevant because of protection of the ILS beam.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
cloudboy
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:43 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You can't fly any ILS you find to CAT III mins, it has to be a CAT III ILS installation and approved approach IN THE WEATHER. Just flying an VMC, yes any ILS will do.

Yes, there are some approved HUD installations for autoland with 121 carriers. Didn't know anout the Diamond, would like to know details on the equipment.


That's what I get for posting when I should already be asleep. :oops:

My point was the system doesn't care about visibility but airport operations being LVO or not is very relevant because of protection of the ILS beam.


I understand that the airport needs a cat III landing system in place for it to be usefull. But I am thinking here about an airport that has Cat III due to bad fog conditions. Say a small operator wants to come in to operate flights, like say Cape Air. Knowing they would need Cat III, and assuming they would be qualified to use it, what is the smallest aircraft they could get that would be capable of using said cat III?
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Starlionblue
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:07 pm

cloudboy wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You can't fly any ILS you find to CAT III mins, it has to be a CAT III ILS installation and approved approach IN THE WEATHER. Just flying an VMC, yes any ILS will do.

Yes, there are some approved HUD installations for autoland with 121 carriers. Didn't know anout the Diamond, would like to know details on the equipment.


That's what I get for posting when I should already be asleep. :oops:

My point was the system doesn't care about visibility but airport operations being LVO or not is very relevant because of protection of the ILS beam.


I understand that the airport needs a cat III landing system in place for it to be usefull. But I am thinking here about an airport that has Cat III due to bad fog conditions. Say a small operator wants to come in to operate flights, like say Cape Air. Knowing they would need Cat III, and assuming they would be qualified to use it, what is the smallest aircraft they could get that would be capable of using said cat III?


Looking at equipment you need dual autopilots, autothrust and rollout capability, plus a bunch of warning system stuff. You can put all that in quite a small plane nowadays, but my guess is some sort of business jet due to cost.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
benbeny
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:05 am

One more thing: cause autoland is usually needed on bad weather with high wind and probable icing condition, you'll at least need FIKI to use the full potential.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:21 pm

My sources tell me that the 737NG and Max have CAT111b with rollout and a 50' AH capability based on whether or not they have a fail operational autopilot or a fail passive unit. It must be an option on the 737 order sheet?
 
Fabo
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:55 pm

Fail op is an option on NG. Dunno about Max. It's quite rare though.

@benbeny: I don't think so. Icing is hit or miss, but winds tend to be quite calm in CAT III weather.
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barney captain
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:44 am

SWA is CATIIIA without autopilot - only HGS.
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benbeny
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:49 am

Fabo wrote:
Fail op is an option on NG. Dunno about Max. It's quite rare though.

@benbeny: I don't think so. Icing is hit or miss, but winds tend to be quite calm in CAT III weather.

I stand corrected. But I still think that FIKI at least is important for cat III to utilize its full potential
 
BravoOne
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:07 pm

In layman terms the big difference in CAT lllb and CATllla is that you do not have to see the runway to land and rollout with lllb. A huge training difference, and in many cases the difference between getting in or diverting to the alternate.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:57 am

What CAT III planes wouldn't have FIKI, except as an MEL item?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:16 am

Sorry you got me there. What is FIKI? Forward Infared?? :) Okay I looked it up and its the first time I have heard that term and I use have breakfast with the IceMan at Boeing and never heard him use that term either. What dies this have to do with low viz landings?
 
benbeny
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:44 am

flight into known icing... i guess i must be spending too much time in general aviation forum then :D
 
cloudboy
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:54 pm

benbeny wrote:
One more thing: cause autoland is usually needed on bad weather with high wind and probable icing condition, you'll at least need FIKI to use the full potential.


Not necessarily. Particularly for a lot of small airport in parts of the country, the airport may just be poorly situated. Case in point - ORH. On a hill, so in the morning it is often fogged in heavily. So far that has really prevented service there. B6 for instance is going to start a JFK flight once Cat III is in place. lots of New England airports are like this, I was wondering if a small operator like CApe Air would be able to benefit from a smaller aircraft with Cat III.
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BravoOne
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:53 pm

I suspect that for small operator the costs associated with CATll, or any kind of CATlll far out weigh the benefits. Training alone would add significant costs over above what they currently spend.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Smallest Cat III Landing Capeable Aircraft?

Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:27 am

The problem is NOT in Having a CATIII certified jet. It's Maintaining it in Auto-land status. The jets would have to have the SAME equipment certified to the same standards. American, Delta, and United all have Cat III certified airplanes but United cannot re-certify American's nor Delta's airplanes nor vice versa. the only possible way would be they all had the same equipment and maintained it IDENTICALLY That in itself might be impossible because to get 2-3 airlines to think exactly alike is akin to herding CATS!! "It ain't gonna' Happen" !

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