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Starlionblue
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Wed May 17, 2017 10:49 am

BravoOne wrote:
Thanks for the reply. That was sent to by an ardent Boeing guy and not knowing anything about the Bus I was not able to respond. Your comments are appreciated. I suspected the Daily Mail might only be good for the bottom of a bird cage.

Thanks again


No worries. It's like the article author interviewed some people, cherry-picked comments that fit his agenda (I'm guessing out of context), then not bothered to have an expert fact check his article.

The computers were going haywire. What does that even mean? Computers do malfunction, but this would engender a specific effect (which may be erratic, but still). Saying they go "haywire" is neither specific nor helpful.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BravoOne
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Wed May 17, 2017 11:18 am

Hey, I go haywire all the time, just ask my wife:)
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Wed May 17, 2017 12:03 pm

glen wrote:
The loudest voice alert in a cockpit I ever heard came from the RAAS (Runway Awareness and Advisory System) on the A330. We are well used to the standard call-outs "Approaching RWY XY" and "On RWY XY".
There is a third warning call-out "ON TAXIWAY! ON TAXIWAY!" when the aircraft speed is above 40kts on a taxiway in order to avoid a erroneous departure from a taxiway. Until about a year ago the most northern part of RWY22R in JFK was designed as taxiway only but got redesigned as runway after some construction work. Before the database of the RAAS got updated we were warned by briefing card about the possibility of a triggering of the "on taxiway"-warning when taking-off from full length. So we were prepared and had rebriefed it again before departure - but when the alert was actually triggered it was so loud it could freeze your blood. Even the F/A's in the galley were freightened and asked about it after departure.


Sounds like the ROW/ROP (Runway Overrun Warning/Runway Overrun Protection) system on the 350. Very loud, and not the same voice as the other voice warnings. The accent is very upper class British. It sounds like Colin Firth is standing next to you screaming "MAX REVERSE!!!" or "RUNWAY TOO SHORT!"


ro1960 wrote:
I'm curious about the new generation nose designs of the A350 and 787 reminiscent of the Comet and Caravelle. How do they fare noise wise?


The 350 is quieter than the 330. Not dramatically, but noticeably. Except if you're sitting in the second observer seat, which is right by a large and noisy air vent.

Special mention goes to the crew rest on the 350, which has an active noise canceling function. You don't even need earplugs to sleep.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
achutchison
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Wed May 17, 2017 10:58 pm

The entire crew rest compartment has electronic active noise cancellation? That's absolutely genius provided I didn't interpret that wrong and it's just padded well (airbus' are already)!
 
Apprentice
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Thu May 18, 2017 5:40 am

Hi: Most of IL-62M noise does not come from Engines. It's aero dynamical noise, due to shape of aircraft's nose and the shape/ location of VHF antenna # 2 (??)
Nevertheless, engines (D30KU-II) with very low by-pass ratio (around 1, if I remember correctly) are also very noisy. The airplane is vetoed in some airports for noise contamination levels.
Typical jokes for crew that before promotion flew IL-62.. was 1. About Noise. 2. About Raise/Lower Tail Gear..

Rgds/
A "NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor
 
VSMUT
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Thu May 18, 2017 8:21 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Seneca is a fun bird to fly. Except when it does that put-put thing once in a while - guaranteed to launch your balls into your skull!


Aye, did that to me in the west too. I even experienced an engine spin the wrong way round on startup once.

I did a single VFR flight in the Seneca once, still one of the most fun flights I have ever done! It really feels great to zig-zag between the CBs and TCUs in that thing.
 
masi1157
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Thu May 18, 2017 11:45 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Special mention goes to the crew rest on the 350, which has an active noise canceling function. You don't even need earplugs to sleep.


No, it doesn't. There is no ANC system on any Airbus A/C.

Gruß, masi1157
481 different segments on 95 airlines to 199 airports in 54 countries
 
achutchison
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Fri May 19, 2017 4:39 am

masi1157 wrote:

No, it doesn't. There is no ANC system on any Airbus A/C.

Gruß, masi1157


You an a350 pilot?
 
masi1157
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Fri May 19, 2017 5:15 am

achutchison wrote:
You an a350 pilot?

No. But if there were any such system on an Airbus, I would know.

Gruß, masi1157
481 different segments on 95 airlines to 199 airports in 54 countries
 
ImperialEagle
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Fri May 19, 2017 10:56 pm

Lockheed L10 Electra, Beech D18, Curtiss C46.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
BravoOne
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Sat May 20, 2017 1:00 am

The VC10 was pretty sweat as well. Rode the JS several times on East African Airways, Great crews.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Sun May 21, 2017 4:08 pm

Woodreau wrote:
The NEO is whisper quiet compared to the 320 CEO. Still has the barking dog tho.

The 145 is annoying, every warning and caution is dumb, if it meets the criteria, ding, ding, and ding, There's no thought for phase of flight. Of course the cabin door is open, we're at the gate, master warning ding. Of course there low engine oil pressure, the engine is shutdown normally. But there's no warning for engine running with the master fadec switch off. It got to the point where I just ignored every warning or caution that the emb-145 generated.

There was an email one day warning about making sure the engine was shutdown before leaving the aircraft. Because I guess a crew left the engine running because they missed it amidst all the other nuisance warnings in the emb-145 cockpit.

Nuissance warnings are a growing issue. When you have aircraft design by committee, everyone wants every possibility shouted out.

I'm curious as to why the NEO is so much quieter than the CEO. It was previously mentioned up thread that the CRT cooling was loud in early CEOs, is there anything else worthy of note between the CEO and NEO? Was more noise insulation added, new avionics reducing cooling need... I'm just curious, any information would be appreciated. For the record, I've never done any design work, other than flight software, up in the cockpit, so I'm very curious as to the design evolution.

Lightsaber
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Starlionblue
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Mon May 22, 2017 12:14 am

masi1157 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Special mention goes to the crew rest on the 350, which has an active noise canceling function. You don't even need earplugs to sleep.


No, it doesn't. There is no ANC system on any Airbus A/C.

Gruß, masi1157


The A350 flight crew bunks each have a black button that makes things quieter through some sort of tech wizardry. I don't know exactly how the magic button performs this wizardry but I was told "active noise cancellation" by the tech instructor during my course, and pressing the magic button does make a very noticeable difference.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
masi1157
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Mon May 22, 2017 9:09 pm

It is an active system, but it doesn't cancel noise nor make the crew rests quieter. In fact it does the opposite: It masques intrusive noise by adding a bit more continuous broadband noise.

Gruß, masi1157
481 different segments on 95 airlines to 199 airports in 54 countries
 
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767333ER
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Mon May 22, 2017 9:37 pm

WIederling wrote:
707 .... : What I always wanted to know : is the 747 cockpit "new" or adapted from some existing layout (inside, outside) ?

The structure was designed from scratch when it was new with superior aerodynamics to the 707 nose a set it featured better blending of the windows which were made curved and the interior was similar to the 707. Since the structure is the same, but since the -400 the cockpit itself is completely different, kinda what they should have done with the 737.

WIederling wrote:
767333ER wrote:
The old A320s have a loud packs system compared to the newer A319s and A321s and the few newer A320s all of which have nearly silent packs.


The A320 is an uncompetitive 1980ties design that never saw any updates.

SCNR :-)

I was referring to Air Canada's fleet as the majority of their A320s are old and despite having noisier packs and ventilation, if you haven't been on the early 90s A320-211s you wouldn't know. They will still have quieter flight decks than their 737 MAXes will.

You could make the case that the A320 is such a competitive airframe that it hardly has needed any update since the 80s even though it has had two iterations of the CFM56 and V2500, PW6000, and now the new engines combined with many under the hood mods. Regardless of those changes, it's still impressive how it has lasted with nothing more done to it.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Mon May 22, 2017 11:45 pm

masi1157 wrote:
It is an active system, but it doesn't cancel noise nor make the crew rests quieter. In fact it does the opposite: It masques intrusive noise by adding a bit more continuous broadband noise.

Gruß, masi1157


That's how active noise cancellation works. Adding a new sound to "cancel" the original sound.

Not technically quieter, but for the fleshbag in the bunk it is definitely perceived as quieter.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
masi1157
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Tue May 23, 2017 7:00 am

Starlionblue wrote:
That's how active noise cancellation works. Adding a new sound to "cancel" the original sound.

Not technically quieter, but for the fleshbag in the bunk it is definitely perceived as quieter.

You don't know much about acoustics, do you?

ANC systems add noise with exactly the same amplitude but opposite phase, so that both cancel out by destructive interference. The actual noise level is decreased by that effect. But they work only under very limited conditions in space, frequency, spectral content, continuousity etc. Cancelling mid frequency broadband noise in a complete FCRC or even a single bunk would not be feasible.

Gruß, masi1157
481 different segments on 95 airlines to 199 airports in 54 countries
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Tue May 23, 2017 7:56 am

masi1157 wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
That's how active noise cancellation works. Adding a new sound to "cancel" the original sound.

Not technically quieter, but for the fleshbag in the bunk it is definitely perceived as quieter.

You don't know much about acoustics, do you?

ANC systems add noise with exactly the same amplitude but opposite phase, so that both cancel out by destructive interference. The actual noise level is decreased by that effect. But they work only under very limited conditions in space, frequency, spectral content, continuousity etc. Cancelling mid frequency broadband noise in a complete FCRC or even a single bunk would not be feasible.

Gruß, masi1157


Good info. Thanks.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Acey559
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Wed May 24, 2017 7:56 pm

The -145 is awful as mentioned. I left the -145 to fly a brand new Legacy 650 and it was slightly less awful. I was told by my chief pilot (a former Embraer test pilot) about how much better is is, but still terrible. And they even went as far as removing the windshield wipers to help with the noise. What a dumb idea that was. Airplanes have them for a reason.

The 757/767 I fly now is tremendously better. The 767 is whisper quiet and the 757 freighters are fine because the recirc fan system is changed making them a lot more quiet. I know there's a baffle system that can be retrofitted to the 767, but I'm not sure if that applies to the 757 as well. It makes a world of difference and you can immediately tell the airplanes that don't have the baffling yet.

I flew the Q400 as well and that cockpit was actually decently quiet. On "long" flights I could take my headset off and not be too uncomfortable.
 
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Eng23
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Tue May 30, 2017 7:27 pm

I have had reports from 787 pilots that the cockpit air conditioning is really quite noisy during flight, it can get quite noisy on the ground as well if you are trying to cool the cockpit down during maintenance so I can see their point
 
Alias1024
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Wed May 31, 2017 12:06 am

CRJs generally aren't too bad except for the early model 100s and 200s. They had these big fat windshield wiper arms that whistle quite obnoxiously as you accelerate. The 700/900 have avionics fans that are a little noisy but overall they aren't all that loud either. All of them have way, way too many nuisance caution messages. Dings all the time, especially as you shut down. IIRC it was two per engine shut down, one for the cargo door, and one for the main cabin door. Some times catering would be on the spot and you'd get a seventh shortly after shut down.

My current daily driver has the classic Douglas narrow body nose so it's fairly quiet, though you will get a nice whooshing sound on the takeoff roll from the clear view window if you opened it at any point while on the ground.

I've jumpeseated on the A320 family, 737, 757, 767, 777, CRJs, ERJ-145, E175, Q200, Q400, MD-80, and 717. The loudest was the ERJ and it's not even close. 2 hours of this terrible screeching and whistling while crammed in the most uncomfortable jumpseat I've sat in. Since I can't figure out how to imbed a video on this board I've included a link to what it's like to ride in the ERJ.

https://youtu.be/0cVlTeIATBs
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Wed May 31, 2017 4:52 pm

Alias1024 wrote:
The loudest was the ERJ and it's not even close. 2 hours of this terrible screeching and whistling while crammed in the most uncomfortable jumpseat I've sat in. Since I can't figure out how to imbed a video on this board I've included a link to what it's like to ride in the ERJ.

https://youtu.be/0cVlTeIATBs


I'm not sure if you brought it up earlier, but apparently a nickname for the ERJ is WSCOD. Since the acronym wasn't explained I checked Urban Dictionary. The definition is priceless, and cannot be posted here. So feel free to have a look:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=WSCOD
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
achutchison
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:11 am

Anyone fly the 747-8? How does it compare?
 
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cpd
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:46 am

Starlionblue wrote:
rjsampson wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
The noise when you engage an autopilot on the A330 is surprisingly loud. Sounds like the credit knocker in a pinball game. It's not an intentional warning, just a mechanical noise.


So, you get that noise both when you engage, and disengage the autopilot? I'm guessing it's the "chirp-chirp-chirp-knock-knock-knock"?

When you mentioned that it's a mechanical noise, what exactly does that mean?

richcam427 wrote:
The MD-90 is absolutely silent, until Bitchin' Betty screams at you.


What, pray tell, is Bitchin' Betty?


The autopilot engagement noise is a mechanical noise as in it is the sound of a mechanism working. I think it has to do with the sidesticks. It is a side effect, and not a purposefully generated sound like a master warning.

Disengaging the autopilot leads first to the autopilot disengage sound ("chirp-chirp-chirp"), which you cancel by pressing the instinctive disconnect button again. Then you typically (but not always) get the "knock knock knock", which indicates a mode change not commanded by the pilot. For example on final approach disengaging the autopilot makes the system revert from "Cat 3 Dual" to "Cat 1".

Bitchin' Betty is the voice telling you to do stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx7-yvXf6f8


That chirp chirp chirp is what they call "cavalry charge" isn't it? That is what it was called in Concorde where a similar sound indicated that AP being disengaged. And overspeed/over-temp was the warble tone, and an additional little "chirp" tones (more like single tones of the warble) when getting close to the maximum speed. And the other infernal "bing, bing, bing" which was the "gong" indicating something on the master warning system to take notice of. Or the And a bell sound, which was the pitch trim wheel moving - sounding like a bicycle bell.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:47 am

cpd wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
rjsampson wrote:

So, you get that noise both when you engage, and disengage the autopilot? I'm guessing it's the "chirp-chirp-chirp-knock-knock-knock"?

When you mentioned that it's a mechanical noise, what exactly does that mean?



What, pray tell, is Bitchin' Betty?


The autopilot engagement noise is a mechanical noise as in it is the sound of a mechanism working. I think it has to do with the sidesticks. It is a side effect, and not a purposefully generated sound like a master warning.

Disengaging the autopilot leads first to the autopilot disengage sound ("chirp-chirp-chirp"), which you cancel by pressing the instinctive disconnect button again. Then you typically (but not always) get the "knock knock knock", which indicates a mode change not commanded by the pilot. For example on final approach disengaging the autopilot makes the system revert from "Cat 3 Dual" to "Cat 1".

Bitchin' Betty is the voice telling you to do stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx7-yvXf6f8


That chirp chirp chirp is what they call "cavalry charge" isn't it? That is what it was called in Concorde where a similar sound indicated that AP being disengaged. And overspeed/over-temp was the warble tone, and an additional little "chirp" tones (more like single tones of the warble) when getting close to the maximum speed. And the other infernal "bing, bing, bing" which was the "gong" indicating something on the master warning system to take notice of. Or the And a bell sound, which was the pitch trim wheel moving - sounding like a bicycle bell.


Yes I think it is the cavalry charge. Same function as on Concorde then. Sounds like the repertoire is quite similar, apart from the pitch trim wheel sound.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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cpd
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:38 am

Starlionblue wrote:
Yes I think it is the cavalry charge. Same function as on Concorde then. Sounds like the repertoire is quite similar, apart from the pitch trim wheel sound.


I have a feeling that Concorde probably provided a lot to Airbus as we know it. I was surprised to look some years ago some of the documents on the Airbus MRTT and see a lot of philosophies that were very familiar. I suspect the Concorde pitch trim bell might actually have been from a bicycle bell. Ding ding ding!

That SST was certainly some way along to the Airbus way of doing things. From what I know of its systems, I think they were done in a very logical way.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: What cockpits are particularly noisy?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:28 am

cpd wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
Yes I think it is the cavalry charge. Same function as on Concorde then. Sounds like the repertoire is quite similar, apart from the pitch trim wheel sound.


I have a feeling that Concorde probably provided a lot to Airbus as we know it. I was surprised to look some years ago some of the documents on the Airbus MRTT and see a lot of philosophies that were very familiar. I suspect the Concorde pitch trim bell might actually have been from a bicycle bell. Ding ding ding!

That SST was certainly some way along to the Airbus way of doing things. From what I know of its systems, I think they were done in a very logical way.


That rings true. The systems architecture seems to incorporate a lot of French technology legacy. I heard from an engineer that worked on the SEPECAT Jaguar that the hydraulic system on modern Airbus is very similar to what it had. Also Falcon jets seem related.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo

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