Chaostheory
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:30 pm

Hi Zeke

I assure you there is nothing testicular in nature about the 144t OWE/OEW for Finnair's initial A350s and I have no agenda to peddle. Suffice it to say, I was a little shocked too.
 
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zeke
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:03 pm

Sorry

It's bullocks, the first finair airframe is msn18, our was msn29. Someone has misrepresented things significantly. You just don't get such a large variation (20% of the available payload), given we know what the MEW was for msn006.

Media reports had the initial batch around 3t overweight, what has been represented on this thread is double the problem the terrible teens had on 787.
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KarelXWB
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:16 pm

thepinkmachine wrote:
I can confirm 136T OEW, straight from the manual. This is for a slightly denser config than CX


Thank you thepinkmachine.

Clearly the newer A350s are significant lighter than the early production frames.
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MoKa777
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:17 am

Will it be possible at all for an airline to get Airbus to manipulate for them the MZFW up or down to adjust the range the of the A359ULR?
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WIederling
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:40 am

MoKa777 wrote:
Will it be possible at all for an airline to get Airbus to manipulate for them the MZFW up or down to adjust the range the of the A359ULR?


While obviously having to stay inside the MZFW for payload you can adjust range by tankering a variable amount of fuel.
ZFW + Fuel <= MTOW. Payload versus Range. As simple as that.
Murphy is an optimist
 
ap305
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:46 pm

The SQ sfo-sin westbound flights are showing a interesting trend of climbing to lower initial cruise levels(fl320/340 vs fl360) than they did in the early days of the operation. Perhaps they are lifting greater loads with increasing confidence in the aircraft performance? The photos of the aircraft being loaded at SFO appear to show healthy amount of freight going on board.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:54 am

ap305 wrote:
The SQ sfo-sin westbound flights are showing a interesting trend of climbing to lower initial cruise levels(fl320/340 vs fl360) than they did in the early days of the operation. Perhaps they are lifting greater loads with increasing confidence in the aircraft performance? The photos of the aircraft being loaded at SFO appear to show healthy amount of freight going on board.


It would be very interesting indeed to know what this standard version of the A350-900 is actually capable of on this mission and the return...
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
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zeke
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:11 am

FL340 would be the highest westbound level that could be achieved with MTOW, FL350 eastbound.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
WIederling
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:54 am

zeke wrote:
FL340 would be the highest westbound level that could be achieved with MTOW, FL350 eastbound.


Why the difference in FL for the same MTOW ? ( or do we talk about different TOWs ? )
.. or do I make some principal error? )
Murphy is an optimist
 
enzo011
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:43 am

WIederling wrote:
zeke wrote:
FL340 would be the highest westbound level that could be achieved with MTOW, FL350 eastbound.


Why the difference in FL for the same MTOW ? ( or do we talk about different TOWs ? )
.. or do I make some principal error? )



My guess would be that the different directions of flight would have different flight levels that they operate at. I guess the maximum is FL350 but seeing as you need 1000 feet separation between westbound and eastbound flights the one will have a lower altitude than the other, even though it is capable of reaching the same altitude.
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:42 am

Just in a nutshell how much different is the Airbus A350-900ULR (is there a short for it) from the A345 or 772LR. I know for one fuel consumption and perhaps the range...but what is that wow factor?
 
RacheyFlies
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:29 am

ULR means an A350 that can reach nonstop SIN-NYC maybe like on the A340-500. But the A359 may only operate the same as the 789 does.
The best plane I've flown is an A380. They were the biggest and the best than other plane I've been on. :lol:
 
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:10 am

Flightsimboy wrote:
Just in a nutshell how much different is the Airbus A350-900ULR (is there a short for it) from the A345 or 772LR. I know for one fuel consumption and perhaps the range...but what is that wow factor?


The dramatically lower fuel consumption IS the "wow factor".
 
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MoKa777
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:20 am

Stitch wrote:
Flightsimboy wrote:
Just in a nutshell how much different is the Airbus A350-900ULR (is there a short for it) from the A345 or 772LR. I know for one fuel consumption and perhaps the range...but what is that wow factor?


The dramatically lower fuel consumption IS the "wow factor".


And also possibly that it will only be able to achieve said range with a far lower payload than the A345. I could be wrong but all I have heard and read so far points in that direction.

Amazing aircraft, nonetheless...
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WIederling
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:16 am

MoKa777 wrote:
And also possibly that it will only be able to achieve said range with a far lower payload than the A345. I could be wrong but all I have heard and read so far points in that direction.


With a bit of penceling into the payload range chart of the regular 900
I get about 9000nm for a 29t payload.
( and a payload derate of 1t per 100nm )
A350-500 has nominal 8700 for max PAX painted in at ~29.5t payload.
( and a payload derate of 1t per 70nm or the inverse: 1.4t per 100nm)

The step in fuel economy is rather obvious.
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ojjunior
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:04 am

The difference is: The A350 is ugly and the A350ULR is ultra ugly.
 
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MoKa777
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:30 am

WIederling wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
And also possibly that it will only be able to achieve said range with a far lower payload than the A345. I could be wrong but all I have heard and read so far points in that direction.


With a bit of penceling into the payload range chart of the regular 900
I get about 9000nm for a 29t payload.
( and a payload derate of 1t per 100nm )
A350-500 has nominal 8700 for max PAX painted in at ~29.5t payload.
( and a payload derate of 1t per 70nm or the inverse: 1.4t per 100nm)

The step in fuel economy is rather obvious.


I was about to ask, what then is the point of the ULR, and then I realised that its purpose is to increase available fuel capacity since I believe that even though the standard version can do a route like this, you will need more fuel on-board than it can hold. Is that assumption of mine correct?

Also, like I asked once before but probably not clearly enough, is the MZFW on the ULR limiting? Is it only good for +-200 to allow for the extra fuel weight (since MTOW is not increasing by the same amount that the additional fuel would weigh)?

SQ is allegedly planning on only outfitting this aircraft with +-170 seats (granted, those will be fairly heavy premium seats) to operate with 20 hour endurance on some days on SIN-NYC.

If my airline wants to fly 18 hour endurance with this aircraft, and assuming 6-7t fuel per hour, can I uplift +-10-12t more? So, 100 more pax or the same 170 pax plus 10t of fish in the lower holds?

Forgive me if this is a dumb question and if I am missing something obvious.
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MoKa777
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:32 am

ojjunior wrote:
The difference is: The A350 is ugly and the A350ULR is ultra ugly.


LOKL! That made my day!

Although, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I find her rather beautiful...
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
WIederling
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:12 pm

is the MZFW on the ULR limiting?

afaics: no.
138kl max fuel would put the A350 in a harder endurance limit at the targeted range.
( The range / payload swapout is more than twice as high )
This is unpleasant as ejecting passengers on the way to fix your weight issues is frowned upon :-)
165kl gives you a payload range curve similar to an A330-200. i.e. you can tanker up/down? to about zero payload.
280t (MTOW) - 165kl * .8 ( max fuel mass ) ~= 148t
178 business class seats ( @ 100..140kg) could present 18t..25t of the OEW.
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MoKa777
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:21 pm

So it is quite a robust aircraft.
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ojjunior
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:00 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
The difference is: The A350 is ugly and the A350ULR is ultra ugly.


LOKL! That made my day!

Although, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I find her rather beautiful...


Absolutely pal...
That's why I won't apply for a position at Airbus' design team but Boeing's.
: )
But I need to be honest, no matter how ugly they can be outside, flying the A350 was pretty comfy.
 
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:13 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
And also possibly that it will only be able to achieve said range with a far lower payload than the A345. I could be wrong but all I have heard and read so far points in that direction.


Yes, the maximum payload of the A350-900 is around 10,000kg less than that of an A340-500, but on a ULR mission you can't lift your maximum structural payload due to the weight of the fuel, so it's not really going to be an issue.


MoKa777 wrote:
I was about to ask, what then is the point of the ULR, and then I realised that its purpose is to increase available fuel capacity since I believe that even though the standard version can do a route like this, you will need more fuel on-board than it can hold. Is that assumption of mine correct?


Physical tank volume is the same across all models of the A350XWB family, but actual usable volume differs per the model. In the case of the ULR, the usable volume is 165,000 liters, which is 15,000 liters more than the baseline A350-900.

MoKa777 wrote:
Also, like I asked once before but probably not clearly enough, is the MZFW on the ULR limiting?


ULR missions trade payload weight for fuel weight so no, the lower MZFW (I'm guessing 190,000kg or less) doesn't impact your payload because you're already limited on how much you can carry.
 
WIederling
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:17 pm

Stitch wrote:
Yes, the maximum payload of the A350-900 is around 10,000kg less than that of an A340-500, but on a ULR mission you can't lift your maximum structural payload due to the weight of the fuel, so it's not really going to be an issue.


Independent of your correct argument ( max payload irrelevance )

The A350-900 ( non ULR ) shows max structural payload of 53..54t
ref: Airbus-AC_A350-900-1000-Nov16.pdf
The A340-500 shows max structural payload of 54t ( the -600 has 66t! )
ref: Airbus-AC-A340-500-600-Jan16.pdf

MZFW of the ULR version appears to be still open.
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:47 pm

Interesting. Earlier ACAPS gave the A340-500's MSP as 62,000kg and 75,000kg for the A340-600.

I'll update my numbers to reflect the new figures from the latest ACAP.
 
WIederling
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:07 pm

Stitch wrote:
Interesting. Earlier ACAPS gave the A340-500's MSP as 62,000kg and 75,000kg for the A340-600.

I'll update my numbers to reflect the new figures from the latest ACAP.


Still have a copy around? Oftentimes interesting to compare.

could the docs have been freshened to accomodate changed ( with time ) cabin arrangements?

Boeing recently and significantly rewrote their complete set of range informations on those grounds.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Nov 24, 2016 8:37 pm

WIederling wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Interesting. Earlier ACAPS gave the A340-500's MSP as 62,000kg and 75,000kg for the A340-600.

I'll update my numbers to reflect the new figures from the latest ACAP.


Still have a copy around? Oftentimes interesting to compare.

could the docs have been freshened to accomodate changed ( with time ) cabin arrangements?

Boeing recently and significantly rewrote their complete set of range informations on those grounds.


No. I overwrite the old ones as the OEMs update (and then update my spreadsheet numbers as necessary).

Looking at the design ranges (maximum passenger capacity line) in the ACAP, it's a bit lower than what Airbus quotes for the HGW models. So the data I had might have been for the HGW models, but even taking into account the higher MZFW of the HGW models, the spread looks too large. So it might very well be that the ACAPs now reflect more modern cabin outfitting and more conservative mission rules as you suggested plus using lower operating weights than the HGW models (I notice even the latest A330 ACAPs still use the 233,000kg MTOW even though you can get close to 10,000kg more).
 
WIederling
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:25 am

zeke wrote:
.

Was the ULR offer made when the regular -900 still came with 268t "design max" MTOW ?

The 100t fuel number you gave earlier is that with or without reserves?

What I noticed: the regular 138kl fuel capacity is ~ 110t mass
Until that is maxed out the fuel for payload swap derates in a friendly fashion.
Beyond max fuel you have to derate more than twice the payload for every further mile of range.
( and the regular -900@268t should be just over the "brink" there.)
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zeke
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:57 am

WIederling wrote:
The 100t fuel number you gave earlier is that with or without reserves?


Would be without alternate and reserve, that would be 2.5 tonnes for 30 minutes reserve and 2-3 tonnes for an alternate.
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WIederling
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:22 am

zeke wrote:
WIederling wrote:
The 100t fuel number you gave earlier is that with or without reserves?


Would be without alternate and reserve, that would be 2.5 tonnes for 30 minutes reserve and 2-3 tonnes for an alternate.


only 5% fuel for contingencies?
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Starlionblue
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:56 pm

WIederling wrote:
zeke wrote:
WIederling wrote:
The 100t fuel number you gave earlier is that with or without reserves?


Would be without alternate and reserve, that would be 2.5 tonnes for 30 minutes reserve and 2-3 tonnes for an alternate.


only 5% fuel for contingencies?


5% is the traditional number, but we often go with much less than 5%. Down to 1-2% on some flights. If you fly long haul and overfly a number of suitable alternates on the way, you don't need 5%.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bjorn14
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:05 am

So what would a standard 2-class config on the ULH look like to achieve the 8400nm range? What is the price tag?
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