SIA77W
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What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:17 pm

According to the following article by Leeham News: https://leehamnews.com/2015/10/13/airbu ... -new-york/

I am to understand that there are no big modifications made to the A350-900 to convert it into a ULR? And that they are just some changes to the fuel tank sensors and computer sensors to allow it to fly upto 19 hrs. First of all it is awesome to note that the A350 is a very versatile aircraft capable of such modifications. However if the changes were that slight, why have another type of aircraft to have such modifications?

And does this mean airlines can easily interchange between A350s and A350ULRs?

Just trying to understand the extent of the modifications that need to happen to make the A350 fly long range?

Thanks!
 
dmstorm22
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:23 pm

I believe it is relatively easy to interchange between A359 and A359ulr (I believe only A359 has this capability, not the A35J). This may be crucial to SQs thinking that if these routes do fail in future, they won't have to carry dead-weight sub-fleet (like they did with A345) but can easily convert back in to normal A359 jets.

As for why even have the other type, well there seem to be few customers who are wanting the ULR version, and I'm sure even if it is an easy change it comes at some cost and it would be easier to do that ad-hoc when needed then change the process of building the normal A359.
 
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

SIA77W wrote:
I am to understand that there are no big modifications made to the A350-900 to convert it into a ULR? And that they are just some changes to the fuel tank sensors and computer sensors to allow it to fly upto 19 hrs. First of all it is awesome to note that the A350 is a very versatile aircraft capable of such modifications.


The main changes are indeed modifications to the fuel control system software and sensors to allow more of the existing fuel tank volume to be used (by an additional 24,000 liters in the case of the standard A350-900 fuel volume). The fuel tank inerting and venting system is also modified. The MTOW is also raised to 280,000kg (though this will be an option on standard A350-900s, as well). The A350-900LR will also have a lower MZFW to accommodate that extra fuel volume and weight (so it's payload will be lower).


SIA77W wrote:
However if the changes were that slight, why have another type of aircraft to have such modifications?


It is in most ways just a marketing designation and in fact one can operate an A350-900ULR with higher MZFWs by limiting the fuel volume, but as there are structural modifications to the fuel system of the ULR, an airline would really only buy a ULR model because they want that fuel volume for ULR missions.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:31 pm

The difference between A359 and A359ULR is in MTOW and MZFW as indicated above.

The higher MTOW of the A359ULR permits the aircraft to carry the additional fuel necessary for ULR flights.

Please note that switching between A359 and A359ULR will not be possible on a day-to-day basis, as each aircraft will be certified to a certain MTOW which translates directlly into airport and NAV charges.

The standard A359 will be more economical, as it will incur lower charges, while the A359ULR at a higher certified MTOW will incur higher airport and Nav Charges, thus raising CASM per seat making this aircraft less attractive on medium haul routes.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:08 pm

I should be pointed out that while Airbus has stated that an A359ULR can be converted to the "configuration" of a standard A359:
  1. They've never stated the inverse (factory A359 converted to A359ULR) is possible/offered, or
  2. That a downgraded A359ULR will have the exact same weights/efficiency as a factory standard A359

I suspect it's more of a possible-but-improbable marketing ploy, similar to Boeing's "easily swap the engines" marketing for the 787.



Stitch wrote:
and in fact one can operate an A350-900ULR with higher MZFWs by limiting the fuel volume

While it's of course physically possible, would that be legal?

I'd imagine if the aircraft is certified with the currently claimed MZFW, then airlines would not be allowed to exceed that.... unless the -ULR isn't receiving a separate certification from the standard A359?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:33 pm

Stitch wrote:
It is in most ways just a marketing designation and in fact one can operate an A350-900ULR with higher MZFWs by limiting the fuel volume


I'm trying to think would that affect max landing weights.

It shouldn't. Aircraft land with differing levels of fuel all the time, and one could do a fuel dump to bring the airframe back under MLW. There are probably prescribed times for fuel dumps, but a ULR filled with fuel is no different from an equally heavy ULR filled with cargo in this respect, both need to lose X kg before landing which will take Y minutes.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:57 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
I should be pointed out that while Airbus has stated that an A359ULR can be converted to the "configuration" of a standard A359:
  1. They've never stated the inverse (factory A359 converted to A359ULR) is possible/offered, or
  2. That a downgraded A359ULR will have the exact same weights/efficiency as a factory standard A359

I suspect it's more of a possible-but-improbable marketing ploy, similar to Boeing's "easily swap the engines" marketing for the 787.


The non-ULR models will not have the fuel system inerting and venting modifications the ULR model has so they would not be able to be "ULR'd" (outside of an MRO facility).


LAX772LR wrote:
While it's of course physically possible, would that be legal?

I'd imagine if the aircraft is certified with the currently claimed MZFW, then airlines would not be allowed to exceed that.... unless the -ULR isn't receiving a separate certification from the standard A359?


Well the 280,000kg MTOW will be an optional Weight Variant on the standard A350-900 so I would expect that the ULR model will also come in various Weight Variants that would offer flexibility in MZFW.
Last edited by Stitch on Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:00 pm

The standard A350-900 with no mods is capable of 8400 nm with full pax payload, not sure how much more ULR you want out of it, that is already too far for me.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:27 pm

zeke wrote:
The standard A350-900 with no mods is capable of 8400 nm with full pax payload

Airbus puts that number at 8100nm, and that's for the 2020 model.

And SQ is saying they'll have to restrict payload to get a standard A359 to SFO as it stands
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:33 pm

Stitch wrote:
The A350-900LR will also have a lower MZFW to accommodate that extra fuel volume and weight (so it's payload will be lower).


Why? The aircraft can structurally carry the same payload, so why lower the MZFW?
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zeke
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:19 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Airbus puts that number at 8100nm, and that's for the 2020 model.

And SQ is saying they'll have to restrict payload to get a standard A359 to SFO as it stands


Flysmart (the performance data on the flight deck) says it will do 8400 nm in 17:42, initial cruise at FL350, after 2.3 hrs climb to FL370, after 6.3 hrs climb to FL390, after 10.5 hrs climb to FL410.

Now what was your source that says it cannot do it ?
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:26 pm

zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Airbus puts that number at 8100nm, and that's for the 2020 model.

And SQ is saying they'll have to restrict payload to get a standard A359 to SFO as it stands


Flysmart (the performance data on the flight deck) says it will do 8400 nm in 17:42, initial cruise at FL350, after 2.3 hrs climb to FL370, after 6.3 hrs climb to FL390, after 10.5 hrs climb to FL410.

Now what was your source that says it cannot do it ?

I'm guessing you somehow missed the first word in that post?

Granted, it's their generic numbers on their website, but it does make the claim for pax+bags.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:27 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Why? The aircraft can structurally carry the same payload, so why lower the MZFW?

The A359ULR and a 2020 vintage A359standard will have the exact same MTOW.

So the only way to get more fuel by weight into the former, is to short the MZFW.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:54 pm

LAX772LR wrote:

So the only way to get more fuel by weight into the former, is to short the MZFW.


I'm not following. The MZFW is the maximum payload that can be carried plus the airframe with no fuel aboard (essentially). Why not leave the MZFW alone but increase the total allowable fuel capacity and make the changes on the payload-range chart? So a fully loaded A359ULR will have the same range as a fully-loaded A359, but the A359 has a longer tail on the payload-range chart. That would increase the flexibility of the airframe.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:07 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Why not leave the MZFW alone but increase the total allowable fuel capacity and make the changes on the payload-range chart? So a fully loaded A359ULR will have the same range as a fully-loaded A359, but the A359 has a longer tail on the payload-range chart. That would increase the flexibility of the airframe.

Good question. No idea why they didn't do it that way, but apparently they saw fit to just short the MZFW and call it a day.

Maybe it's something SQ wanted. They're still the only ones who've ordered it, and could very easily remain such. The ME3 all went for the 778, due to its ability to carry payload over those distances, as opposed to essentially being a flying tanker for low density pax configs.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:03 am

LAX772LR wrote:
I'm guessing you somehow missed the first word in that post?

Granted, it's their generic numbers on their website, but it does make the claim for pax+bags.


Round numbers, MTOW 275t, Fuel burn 100t, OEW 135t = 40 t left over for passengers, bags, catering, and reserves.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:05 am

DocLightning wrote:
Why not leave the MZFW alone but increase the total allowable fuel capacity and make the changes on the payload-range chart?


If they increase the fuel in the centre tank, that payload is within the fuelage and does not provide bending moment relief like fuel in the wings. Its just like an ACT, it acts like its more cargo until its burned off.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:48 am

zeke wrote:
... that is already too far for me.


Anti-decubitus cushion anyone ? :-)
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:51 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
Why? The aircraft can structurally carry the same payload, so why lower the MZFW?

The A359ULR and a 2020 vintage A359standard will have the exact same MTOW.

So the only way to get more fuel by weight into the former, is to short the MZFW.


Nix the "M".
More fuel results in less ZFW. But that need not have an effect on the _Max_ZeroFuelWeight.
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SIA77W
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:43 pm

So as far as I understand - the ULR designation leads to different certifications that make it legal for SQ to fly those extended routes?

Other than that, the physical capabilities of the aircraft are not actively changed?
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:16 pm

SIA77W wrote:
So as far as I understand - the ULR designation leads to different certifications that make it legal for SQ to fly those extended routes?

Other than that, the physical capabilities of the aircraft are not actively changed?


There are physical modifications to the fuel system inerting and venting to allow it to use more of the pre-existing volume of the fuel tanks.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:04 pm

So, which one is the best source? An OEM publication, or the software in the actual cockpit? Interesting question. :)

More seriously, what may be the difference? Is the quoted cockpit range the absolute max range of the aircraft in said configuration, and then the publication range a kind of average practical range, taking into account headwinds on the return leg?
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:21 pm

Aircellist wrote:
So, which one is the best source? An OEM publication, or the software in the actual cockpit? Interesting question. :)


Well the cockpit, of course, since it's actual data directly representative of an actual flight.


Aircellist wrote:
More seriously, what may be the difference? Is the quoted cockpit range the absolute max range of the aircraft in said configuration, and then the publication range a kind of average practical range, taking into account headwinds on the return leg?


The cockpit data is real-world. The data the OEMs publish is a general estimate that may or may not take into account some real-world variables.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:51 pm

Thanks, Stitch. To be honest, my first question was kind of rhetorical. Zeke is so much fact based that I guess one day he'll be directly interviewing a bolt to give an accurate answer.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:52 pm

Aircellist wrote:
More seriously, what may be the difference? Is the quoted cockpit range the absolute max range of the aircraft in said configuration, and then the publication range a kind of average practical range, taking into account headwinds on the return leg?


You could start with the ACAPS, it already has the -900 doing over 8000 nm today, when another poster "claimed" Airbus "said" that was not available until 2020. The Airbus marketing config is 325 pax for the -900, we carry 280, that is 4.5t less payload right there. Put in 28t (280 pax) into the ACAPS chart you get around 8500 nm.

Then the other poster "claimed" the -900 will be payload restricted to SFO, of course it will be, you are payload restricted at any range. No aircraft has unlimited payload, it was a meaningless comment.

BTW my personal interactions with flysmart flight plan numbers so far is that the aircraft is better than the database figures.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:25 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Stitch wrote:
and in fact one can operate an A350-900ULR with higher MZFWs by limiting the fuel volume

While it's of course physically possible, would that be legal?

I'd imagine if the aircraft is certified with the currently claimed MZFW, then airlines would not be allowed to exceed that.... unless the -ULR isn't receiving a separate certification from the standard A359?


Variable ZFW giving different MTOWs is already a feature on the 330*. By limiting the MZFW lower we can increase the MTOW, or vice versa. Both limit combinations are simply specified in the FCOM.

* (It's not all of them and I'm unsure if it is an optional feature or something added to later models.)
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:36 am

One thing that might be overlooked in "what differences"
is that the ULR was offered first ( while the nominal A359 was still @269t?).

A359 @280t MTOW is a partial backport of the ULR details?
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
One thing that might be overlooked in "what differences" is that the ULR was offered first ( while the nominal A359 was still @269t?).

A359 @280t MTOW is a partial backport of the ULR details?


If we're talking available Weight Variants, then yes, the A350-900ULR will offer the 280,000kg MTOW a year or so before it's available on the standard A350-900. And the A350-900's top WV MTOW at the time the A350-900ULR was announced was 275,000kg.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:53 pm

Some approximate numbers;
MTOW 280T
OEW 144T
MZFW 196T
Max Fuel 108T
325 Pax 31T (based on 95kg Pax + Luggage)
So load 31T pax to OEW and you get 175T
so can load 105T fuel
Which is the way to fully utilise the fuel capacity of the 359.
obviously no freight
for the 276 T variant you load 4T less fuel (assuming all other weights the same)
A fully loaded 359 (276T with 52Tpayload) is good for 5750nm
with 325 pax (31T) 8000 nm
so with an extra 4T of fuel in the 280T variant, 8400nm is possible (roughly because it burns 21T of fuel to go 2000nm so 4T for 400nm when light seems reasonable)
So it appears it can do it, but 325 pax in a 359 for 17hrs, can the pax do it.
The question in my mind is can it do it economically

Just for comparison
MTOW 254T
MZFW 181T
OEW 129T
Max fuel 101T

a 789 (254T) with 31T payload can go 8000nm also, but does it with 7T less fuel.(254 - (31+129)) (For 359 (276-(31+144))
Fully loaded at MZFW (also 52T payload) a 789 (254T) can go 5,500nm.(250nm less than the 350)
Figures are the ones I had June last year
Using 276T 359 because don't have a payload range for the 280T
The figures are heavily influenced by the actual OEW.

Ruscoe
 
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zeke
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:11 am

Except the A359 OEW is not 144t, and the 789 is not 129t.

Start with crap numbers you get crap results. Highly amusing a person would value their back of a fag packet, finger into the wind data over the certified data onboard the aircraft.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:02 am

zeke wrote:
Except the A359 OEW is not 144t, and the 789 is not 129t.

Start with crap numbers you get crap results. Highly amusing a person would value their back of a fag packet, finger into the wind data over the certified data onboard the aircraft.


Would it be possible for you to do the same calculations that Ruscoe did for us for the A350-900 but using the actual information that you have on hand? Please...
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:30 am

Zeke already stated an OEW of 135t above.

zeke wrote:
Round numbers, MTOW 275t, Fuel burn 100t, OEW 135t = 40 t left over for passengers, bags, catering, and reserves.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:16 am

Is it reasonable to assume that a similarly configured 789 will have a lower OEW given its smaller size relative to the A359?
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:48 am

MoKa777 wrote:
Is it reasonable to assume that a similarly configured 789 will have a lower OEW given its smaller size relative to the A359?

Absolutely. The 787 would not be a competitive aircraft if it were not lighter at a smaller size.

In this thread http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=776171 the OEW of the 787-9 is claimed to be just below 129t acording to Boeing's website in a standard config. But that may not be comparable to the config Zeke is refering to...
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:18 am

Thanks for that.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:29 am

The A350 is larger and would have more (premium) seats.
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:29 pm

mafi29 wrote:
In this thread http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=776171 the OEW of the 787-9 is claimed to be just below 129t acording to Boeing's website in a standard config. But that may not be comparable to the config Zeke is refering to...


chaostheory has posted that the 787-9's at his airline have an OEW of 128,000kg. United's 787-9s have a 127,500kg OEW and Finnair's A350-900s are at 144,000kg.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:55 pm

Stitch wrote:
OEW and Finnair's A350-900s are at 144,000kg.


Sounds like absolute bullocks, typically the number I presented have been totally ignored in favor of the pro Boeing agenda.
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Stitch
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:52 pm

zeke wrote:
Stitch wrote:
OEW and Finnair's A350-900s are at 144,000kg.


Sounds like absolute bullocks, typically the number I presented have been totally ignored in favor of the pro Boeing agenda.


Of course it sounds like absolute bullocks to you, zeke, since it doesn't show Boeing in a negative light. :roll:

I have no reason to believe chaostheory is lying about his airline's 787s just as I don't believe he's been lying about the performance numbers he has provided for his airline's A350s (numbers that happen to match your own claims of CX's performance with the type). And his claim his airline's 787-9s are around 128,000kg in two classes and UA's 787-9s being the same in two classes both track with Boeing's latest Revision L (December 2015) that shows the 787-9 OEW at ~129,000kg in two classes with modern Business Class seating.

I also don't doubt CX's A350-900's have an OEW of 135,000kg (assuming that is your claim). And I know CX and AY have the same Business Class seats. But AY does have 8 more of them, plus 15 more Premium Economy seats (and 6 less Economy seats) so it's logical AY's planes would be heavier because of that. 11,000kg heavier? No, but AY's first birds were earlier production tranches that were some 4000kg heavier than the original target. If your 135,000kg figure is for the latest delivery that is benefiting from whatever weight reductions Airbus has been able to introduce in the intervening few dozen frames.

And Airbus themselves presented a figure of 142,000kg for the OEW of the A350-900 in three classes (First, Business and Economy) in 2012 when they were well past firm configuration / Maturity Gate 7 so drop the F and add more (and heavier) J and also swap a bunch of Y for Y+ and the numbers being similar does not strike me as ridiculous. And the "green/MEW" figure for MSN005 was 119,000kg (so that was without seats, galleys, lavatories or other cabin fittings).
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:49 am

Stitch wrote:
zeke wrote:
Stitch wrote:
OEW and Finnair's A350-900s are at 144,000kg.


Sounds like absolute bullocks, typically the number I presented have been totally ignored in favor of the pro Boeing agenda.


Of course it sounds like absolute bullocks to you, zeke, since it doesn't show Boeing in a negative light. :roll:

I have no reason to believe chaostheory is lying about his airline's 787s just as I don't believe he's been lying about the performance numbers he has provided for his airline's A350s (numbers that happen to match your own claims of CX's performance with the type). And his claim his airline's 787-9s are around 128,000kg in two classes and UA's 787-9s being the same in two classes both track with Boeing's latest Revision L (December 2015) that shows the 787-9 OEW at ~129,000kg in two classes with modern Business Class seating.

I also don't doubt CX's A350-900's have an OEW of 135,000kg (assuming that is your claim). And I know CX and AY have the same Business Class seats. But AY does have 8 more of them, plus 15 more Premium Economy seats (and 6 less Economy seats) so it's logical AY's planes would be heavier because of that. 11,000kg heavier? No, but AY's first birds were earlier production tranches that were some 4000kg heavier than the original target. If your 135,000kg figure is for the latest delivery that is benefiting from whatever weight reductions Airbus has been able to introduce in the intervening few dozen frames.

And Airbus themselves presented a figure of 142,000kg for the OEW of the A350-900 in three classes (First, Business and Economy) in 2012 when they were well past firm configuration / Maturity Gate 7 so drop the F and add more (and heavier) J and also swap a bunch of Y for Y+ and the numbers being similar does not strike me as ridiculous. And the "green/MEW" figure for MSN005 was 119,000kg (so that was without seats, galleys, lavatories or other cabin fittings).


Very well reasoned, if you don't mind me saying so.
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KarelXWB
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:24 am

Well zeke is right, Cathay's A350s have significant lower OEW.

There was a weight reduction from MSN 21; Finnair's first A350 is MSN 18 and may be a bit heavier than the latest A350s. Perhaps Finnair's latest A350, MSN 51, is in the same ballpark as CX?
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MoKa777
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:44 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Well zeke is right, Cathay's A350s have significant lower OEW.

There was a weight reduction from MSN 21; Finnair's first A350 is MSN 18 and may be a bit heavier than the latest A350s. Perhaps Finnair's latest A350, MSN 51, is in the same ballpark as CX?


Yes he is and he knows way more than we will ever know about CX's A350s but that does not preclude the 789 being a certain weight (weights, as Stitch mentioned, offered by reputable sources).
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:45 am

Of course. The 787-9 is a smaller plane, hence less weight.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:50 pm

Stitch wrote:
Of course it sounds like absolute bullocks to you, zeke, since it doesn't show Boeing in a negative light.


Considering you even think its not reasonable ("11,000kg heavier? No"), why the inflammatory remark ?

Stitch wrote:
But AY does have 8 more of them, plus 15 more Premium Economy seats (and 6 less Economy seats) so it's logical AY's planes would be heavier because of that. 11,000kg heavier?


They dont have PEY seats, they have Y seats (9 abreast) with more ~4" more pitch. No one would honestly believe they are "11,000kg heavier?", so why present it like it was fact ?

Stitch wrote:
And Airbus themselves presented a figure of 142,000kg for the OEW of the A350-900 in three classes (First, Business and Economy) in 2012 when they were well past firm configuration / Maturity Gate 7 so drop the F and add more (and heavier) J and also swap a bunch of Y for Y+ and the numbers being similar does not strike me as ridiculous.


I am not aware of Airbus ever presenting any OEW figure in the public. I know some people have taken a number in the aircraft leveling section of the ACAPS as the OEW, but its nothing to do with that. They dont publish an OEW in the ACAPS.

Stitch wrote:
And the "green/MEW" figure for MSN005 was 119,000kg (so that was without seats, galleys, lavatories or other cabin fittings).


Makes the 144 tonnes figure look even worse.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:12 pm

zeke wrote:
Stitch wrote:
But AY does have 8 more of them, plus 15 more Premium Economy seats (and 6 less Economy seats) so it's logical AY's planes would be heavier because of that. 11,000kg heavier?


They dont have PEY seats, they have Y seats (9 abreast) with more ~4" more pitch. No one would honestly believe they are "11,000kg heavier?", so why present it like it was fact?


I didn't. I added a "No" right afterwards to note I didn't believe that was the case, but of course you deliberately omit that so you can still take a shot.

And the number should have been 9000kg (144T for AY and 135T for CX), which is still a large difference.


zeke wrote:
Stitch wrote:
And the "green/MEW" figure for MSN005 was 119,000kg (so that was without seats, galleys, lavatories or other cabin fittings).


Makes the 144 tonnes figure look even worse.


Yes it does seem high, but the figure was posted on the forum by someone who said they worked for Finnair and had access to the figures. That thread had responses by yourself and other A350 pilots after that post and none of you chose to call them out on it. *shrug*
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:03 am

Stitch wrote:
I didn't. I added a "No" right afterwards to note I didn't believe that was the case, but of course you deliberately omit that so you can still take a shot.


I raised four points in my post, each separated.

First point was not believing the 11,000 kg
Second was correcting the statement you made about the AY PEY seats
Third was related to your claims Airbus stated an OEW of 142t
Fourth was knowing the MEW the OEW number looks unachievable.

The relevant parts were correctly quoted for each part, it is you sir that has deliberately twisted things.


Stitch wrote:
Yes it does seem high, but the figure was posted on the forum by someone who said they worked for Finnair and had access to the figures. That thread had responses by yourself and other A350 pilots after that post and none of you chose to call them out on it. *shrug*


How on earth does that translate to being the OEW for all A350s especially since you had prior knowledge of the MEW ?

You also claimed Airbus published the number.

Did my contribution to the thread endorse the OEW claimed as being corrrct for all airlines or the Airbus marketing number ?

The double standards on this thread are as clear as black and white.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:30 am

zeke wrote:
Stitch wrote:
I didn't. I added a "No" right afterwards to note I didn't believe that was the case, but of course you deliberately omit that so you can still take a shot.


I raised four points in my post, each separated.

First point was not believing the 11,000 kg
Second was correcting the statement you made about the AY PEY seats
Third was related to your claims Airbus stated an OEW of 142t
Fourth was knowing the MEW the OEW number looks unachievable.

The relevant parts were correctly quoted for each part, it is you sir that has deliberately twisted things.


Stitch wrote:
Yes it does seem high, but the figure was posted on the forum by someone who said they worked for Finnair and had access to the figures. That thread had responses by yourself and other A350 pilots after that post and none of you chose to call them out on it. *shrug*


How on earth does that translate to being the OEW for all A350s especially since you had prior knowledge of the MEW ?

You also claimed Airbus published the number.

Did my contribution to the thread endorse the OEW claimed as being corrrct for all airlines or the Airbus marketing number ?

The double standards on this thread are as clear as black and white.


I think then that an OEW of between 133t to 144t is reasonable with the differences attributed to number and type of seats and date of manufacture.
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:54 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
I think then that an OEW of between 133t to 144t is reasonable with the differences attributed to number and type of seats and date of manufacture.


Well it could be for wildly disparate configurations, but AY's and CX's are not. So a spread of 9,0000kg is clearly anomalous in this situation.

With the A350 just entering general revenue service, data points for actual airline configurations is extremely scarce (even for the 787, we have little, and there are almost 500 of them around). AY's was the first I had seen posted. Now we have a second at 135,000kg with zeke posting CX's. I trust zeke when it comes to CX, so that is my personal new baseline and if I had that one first, I'd have questioned the 144,000kg one for AY because it was so much higher than the one for CX with a similar configuration.
 
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:24 am

Stitch wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
I think then that an OEW of between 133t to 144t is reasonable with the differences attributed to number and type of seats and date of manufacture.


Well it could be for wildly disparate configurations, but AY's and CX's are not. So a spread of 9,0000kg is clearly anomalous in this situation.

With the A350 just entering general revenue service, data points for actual airline configurations is extremely scarce (even for the 787, we have little, and there are almost 500 of them around). AY's was the first I had seen posted. Now we have a second at 135,000kg with zeke posting CX's. I trust zeke when it comes to CX, so that is my personal new baseline and if I had that one first, I'd have questioned the 144,000kg one for AY because it was so much higher than the one for CX with a similar configuration.


Yep, I agree that the figure quoted by Zeke is the most reasonable/best baseline and reference point. My comment was more along the lines of comparing the 2 ends of the spectrum.

The earlier built, more dense version of the aircraft would obviously weigh more than a newer example that has lost a few pounds and is configured with fewer seats. For that matter, the latest SQ birds may be even lighter than the CX ones since they are fitted with 27 fewer seats (I think that SQ J may be heavier but their are only 4 more compared to CX).
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thepinkmachine
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Re: What is the difference between the A350 and the A350ULR

Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:39 am

I can confirm 136T OEW, straight from the manual. This is for a slightly denser config than CX

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