EBiafore99
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 7:15 pm

IMO, DL was a one-hub airline before its merger with NW. If my memory serves correctly, other than ATL, I don't think any of DLs other hubs had the traffic like DTW or MSP. CVG was already being downsized. I believe SLC has stayed within the 200 - 300 daily flight range. In terms of LAX and NYC, DL didn't have the network out of those cities it has now.

As others have said, after the merger, IMO, I don't consider DL a one hub airline anymore.
 
superjeff
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 7:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
Here is the truth about Atlanta as a hub. It is within a two hour flight of 80% of the population, and has one of the most efficient terminal layouts (for planes) and space on the East coast.

Atlanta meets the needs of many people in smaller towns across the south , east, and midwest in making connecting flights. There is no doubt other hubs are smaller, but no other hubs are in such great locations without serious competition.


Delta is not a one hub airline by any means. They have efficient hubs around the world for moving traffic. They also have serious concentrations of Focus Cities where they do a lot of O&D. To say that Delta is a one hub airline is like saying Apple is only about the Iphone.



Delta's Atlanta hub is the original U.S. airline hub, developed by them in the 1950's and 1960's. For years, the only similar sized hub operation was Eastern's, also in Atlanta (and then Braniff emulated the hub/spoke concept at Dallas Love Field and later DFW). Everybody else copied ATL and Delta's operation there. So it is the oldest hub they have. But I would agree that MSP and DTW and the reinvigorated SEA hub (former Northwest hubs) are bona fide hubs, that SCL and LAX (former Western Airlines hubs) are bona fide hubs, and even BOS (former Northeast Airlines hub) actually count as such, as well as New York JFK and LGA, both essentially built by Delta from the ground up (although much of Delta's JFK international service was acquired from Pan Am, as was the LGA shuttle operation).
 
FSDan
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 8:11 pm

compensateme wrote:
But let's put this in context:

% of connecting vs. overall traffic, 2017 (includes ALL traffic, not just airline hub-specific):
1. CLT 70.0%
2. ATL 62.6%
3. DFW 55.2%
4. IAH 52.8%
5. ORD 44.6%
6. MIA 41.6%
7. DTW 41.2%
8. IAD 39.2%
9. MSP 38.1%
10. SLC 37.6%


(Bolding mine)

One thing to keep in mind when comparing ATL with DTW and MSP here is the size of DL vs O&D airlines (airlines that sell few, if any connections) at each airport. At ATL, there's DL (~1070 departures), WN (~125 departures, and they sell quite a few connections too), and then maybe 120-130 departures on other airlines that don't sell many connections. At DTW and MSP, it's basically just DL (~450-460 departures at each hub) plus 140-150 departures on other airlines that don't sell many connections (I'm sure there are some connections on SY at MSP or on NK at DTW, but they would be peanuts compared to WN at ATL). That rough math makes ATL less than half of DTW and MSP in terms of percentage of traffic flying on O&D-only airlines.

All that to say, ATL's total % of connecting traffic across all airlines compared to DTW and MSP is going to be higher in part because the share of traffic carried by airlines that sell lots of connections is significantly higher than DTW and MSP to begin with.
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strfyr51
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 8:14 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
qfs wrote:
I wouldn't consider LAX a hub for Delta, especially when you compare it to SEA, SLC, MSP, & DTW. Delta is LAX's 2nd highest carrier after AA. JFK could probably fall into the hub category because their presence at JFK is larger than JetBlue's.


Despite lots of debate on a.net, I'm not sure there is a Generally Accepted criteria to be called a hub. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, I suppose we should just accept whatever the airline considers it to be.

I think of JFK (and to a lesser extent BOS and LAX) as "gateways" to connect with Int'l flights. I know they serve domestic connections as well, but both of those are airports I would not "choose" to connect domestically through and geographically they aren't ideal for domestic connections. LGA is also considered a hub by DL and I would never connect through there.

I would say AA in MIA is in a similar boat. Sure you could connect there domestically, but unless you're going to/from Florida, you're likely going way out of the way.

any hub would have to have on excess of 100 mainline flights per day destinations notwithstanding.
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 8:24 pm

I also believe that DL intentionally directs as much traffic thru ATL as possible, even if it might be considered "out of the way" for some travelers.

Anecdotally, while waiting for bags to be delivered at customs at ATL and connecting elsewhere, it always amazes me the bag tags I see for final destinations that you'd think have much more direct options to travel internationally.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 8:35 pm

These are for profit companies all that matters is how much money they make for shareholders. This is not a charity run to operate glamorous routes.

Delta has better lower cost hubs which is why they make more money. United and AA have much higher expenses at their hubs. It's easy to blame current managemt but delta is in the position they are now because of good decisions by previous CEOs and operating from low cost hubs so their costs are just lower.
 
klm617
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 10:36 pm

FSDan wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
With Delta's system set up so that most of their connecting traffic flows over Atlanta does that not make it a one hub airline. Atlanta has the most unique destinations not served by it's other large operations unlike AA and UA who has flights from most of their 2nd and third tier cities connected to multiple hubs where Delta does not. While it has large operations at BOS, DTW, JFK, LGA, MSP, SLC and SEA those cities are more set up to capture O/D traffic rather than connecting traffic. While connections can be made at these other airports they really aren't full blown hub operations that are set up to primarily field connecting traffic like ORD, EWR and IAH are for UA and CLT, DFW, ORD and PHX are for AA. The only real market set up like that in the Delta network is ATL. With that being said while it works for Delta today is the plan viable long term as UA and AA chip away at the Delta market share in 2nd and 3rd tier cites where Delta for the most part only connects them to one of their sizable markets more often than not that being ATL.


You speak with confidence, but you don't seem to know DL's network very well... While ATL is massive and has easily the most connecting traffic of any DL hub, MSP, DTW, and SLC in particular serve many unique destinations that aren't served from ATL, and are very much connecting hubs (look at the O&D stats for MSP, DTW, and SLC vs some of the other hubs you named such as EWR and PHX). If you look at the schedules for MSP, DTW, and SLC, you'll see that there are very distinct connecting banks throughout the day, designed precisely to facilitate connections. You can't lump these three hubs together with SEA, LGA, and BOS and try to label them all the same way.

Just for fun, here's a list off the top of my head of the domestic destinations served by SLC, MSP, and DTW, but not ATL:
FAI (MSP)
PSC (SLC, MSP)
GEG (SLC, MSP)
EUG (SLC)
MFR (SLC)
RDM (SLC)
LWS (SLC)
BOI (SLC, MSP)
SUN (SLC)
TWF (SLC)
PIH (SLC)
IDA (SLC, MSP)
GTF (SLC, MSP)
HLN (SLC, MSP)
BTM (SLC)
WYS (SLC)
BIL (SLC, MSP)
COD (SLC)
CPR (SLC)
FAT (SLC)
SBA (SLC, coming soon)
LGB (SLC)
EKO (SLC)
SGU (SLC)
CDC (SLC)
GJT (SLC)
HRL (MSP)
ABR (MSP)
ISN (MSP)
MOT (MSP)
BIS (MSP)
GFK (MSP)
INL (MSP)
BJI (MSP)
HIB (MSP)
DLH (MSP)
BRD (MSP)
MQT (MSP, DTW)
IMT (MSP, DTW)
ESC (DTW)
CIU (MSP, DTW)
RHI (MSP)
CWA (MSP, DTW)
LSE (MSP, DTW)
AZO (MSP, DTW)
LAN (MSP, DTW)
PLN (DTW)
APN (DTW)
MBS (MSP, DTW)
ERI (DTW)
SCE (DTW)
ELM (DTW)
ITH (DTW)
BGM (DTW)
SWF (DTW)
ORH (DTW, coming soon)
BGR (DTW)



Thank you for sharing this list. It's pretty interesting how few unique markets Detroit has compared to the other hubs. You really can't count Banger either as that is Saturday only seasonal.
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compensateme
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 8:27 am

FSDan wrote:
compensateme wrote:
But let's put this in context:

% of connecting vs. overall traffic, 2017 (includes ALL traffic, not just airline hub-specific):
1. CLT 70.0%
2. ATL 62.6%
3. DFW 55.2%
4. IAH 52.8%
5. ORD 44.6%
6. MIA 41.6%
7. DTW 41.2%
8. IAD 39.2%
9. MSP 38.1%
10. SLC 37.6%


(Bolding mine)

One thing to keep in mind when comparing ATL with DTW and MSP here is the size of DL vs O&D airlines (airlines that sell few, if any connections) at each airport. At ATL, there's DL (~1070 departures), WN (~125 departures, and they sell quite a few connections too), and then maybe 120-130 departures on other airlines that don't sell many connections. At DTW and MSP, it's basically just DL (~450-460 departures at each hub) plus 140-150 departures on other airlines that don't sell many connections (I'm sure there are some connections on SY at MSP or on NK at DTW, but they would be peanuts compared to WN at ATL). That rough math makes ATL less than half of DTW and MSP in terms of percentage of traffic flying on O&D-only airlines.

All that to say, ATL's total % of connecting traffic across all airlines compared to DTW and MSP is going to be higher in part because the share of traffic carried by airlines that sell lots of connections is significantly higher than DTW and MSP to begin with.


That's incorrect. You're drawing a false conclusion because your data points are invalid; Using the number of flights is deceiving due to the swings of capacity generated by various aircraft; for example, last year, AA and UA (combined) offered a similar number of flights at ATL as DTW, but carried more than twice the passengers, as ATL is virtually all-mainline whereas DTW is vast majority regional jet (including many 50-seaters).

Here's a more accurate rough calculation: In 2017, ATL handled 52M enplanements, of which 19.45M were local. DL handled 80% of total traffic, WN 9.5% and all other airlines 10.5%. Let's assume that passengers on "all other airlines" were local, and half of WN's traffic was local. That's 2.47M local passengers on WN, 5.46M on "all other airlines," and 11.52M on DL (37.4% of 52M enplanements were local, or 19.45M, less 2.47M on WN and 5.46M on all other airlines). 11.52M local of 41.6M total passengers on DL = a connecting passenger rate of 73%. Now, I say rough math because I'm not going to spend hours digging into this topic and some of these assumptions are not wholly correct; e.g. WN told the ACJ in 2016 that the "majority" of its ATL traffic was local (so the number would be over 50%, especially since WN slightly shrunk in 2018), and some passengers on "all other airlines" are connecting via KL, AF, KE, etc. But I'd say with high confidence that DL's overall connecting traffic in ATL is somewhere between 70% - 75%.

A mid-2000s thread from LAXIntl puts DTW & MSP just over 60% connecting traffic, and ATL in the mid-50s - despite FL carrying somewhere around 80% connecting. There are oodles of markets in the Midwest in which today ATL is the largest connecting point, but prior to the merger had no or limited service. Ultimately, the evidence supports the assertion that DL moved connecting flows from DTW & MSP (as well as CVG & MEM) to grow its ATL operation, hence why DL's connecting % at ATL is sitting at historical high whereas DTW & MSP are at historical lows. Looking at the list provided by LAXIntl above, ATL is at the top whereas DTW, MSP & SLC are at the bottom, whereas AA (sans CLT, which is less than half the size of ATL) and UA's hubs are closer together. This also supports the assertion.

That's not to argue that DL is doing something wrong, it's just to dispute your assertion that ATL is naturally going to have a higher % of connecting traffic since it's a multihub airline. That shouldn't matter anyway, since % is a constant - not finite number - e.g. if DL had 50% connecting traffic and WN 50%, the overall number (between the two) is 50%, not 60%.
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FSDan
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 12:53 pm

compensateme wrote:
FSDan wrote:
compensateme wrote:
But let's put this in context:

% of connecting vs. overall traffic, 2017 (includes ALL traffic, not just airline hub-specific):
1. CLT 70.0%
2. ATL 62.6%
3. DFW 55.2%
4. IAH 52.8%
5. ORD 44.6%
6. MIA 41.6%
7. DTW 41.2%
8. IAD 39.2%
9. MSP 38.1%
10. SLC 37.6%


(Bolding mine)

One thing to keep in mind when comparing ATL with DTW and MSP here is the size of DL vs O&D airlines (airlines that sell few, if any connections) at each airport. At ATL, there's DL (~1070 departures), WN (~125 departures, and they sell quite a few connections too), and then maybe 120-130 departures on other airlines that don't sell many connections. At DTW and MSP, it's basically just DL (~450-460 departures at each hub) plus 140-150 departures on other airlines that don't sell many connections (I'm sure there are some connections on SY at MSP or on NK at DTW, but they would be peanuts compared to WN at ATL). That rough math makes ATL less than half of DTW and MSP in terms of percentage of traffic flying on O&D-only airlines.

All that to say, ATL's total % of connecting traffic across all airlines compared to DTW and MSP is going to be higher in part because the share of traffic carried by airlines that sell lots of connections is significantly higher than DTW and MSP to begin with.


That's incorrect. You're drawing a false conclusion because your data points are invalid; Using the number of flights is deceiving due to the swings of capacity generated by various aircraft; for example, last year, AA and UA (combined) offered a similar number of flights at ATL as DTW, but carried more than twice the passengers, as ATL is virtually all-mainline whereas DTW is vast majority regional jet (including many 50-seaters).

Here's a more accurate rough calculation: In 2017, ATL handled 52M enplanements, of which 19.45M were local. DL handled 80% of total traffic, WN 9.5% and all other airlines 10.5%. Let's assume that passengers on "all other airlines" were local, and half of WN's traffic was local. That's 2.47M local passengers on WN, 5.46M on "all other airlines," and 11.52M on DL (37.4% of 52M enplanements were local, or 19.45M, less 2.47M on WN and 5.46M on all other airlines). 11.52M local of 41.6M total passengers on DL = a connecting passenger rate of 73%. Now, I say rough math because I'm not going to spend hours digging into this topic and some of these assumptions are not wholly correct; e.g. WN told the ACJ in 2016 that the "majority" of its ATL traffic was local (so the number would be over 50%, especially since WN slightly shrunk in 2018), and some passengers on "all other airlines" are connecting via KL, AF, KE, etc. But I'd say with high confidence that DL's overall connecting traffic in ATL is somewhere between 70% - 75%.


I'm not arguing anything about the actual % of connecting passengers DL carries at ATL (which seems to be what you're clarifying above). I'm saying that even if DL carried the same % connecting passengers at all three of MSP, DTW, and ATL (say 50% at each for simplicity), I'd expect the overall ATL connecting passenger stats across all carries to be higher than the same stats for MSP and DTW due to DL's relative larger size against other airlines at ATL. I agree # of departures isn't a pure measure of size, but to your point about AA having much larger average aircraft gauge at ATL vs DTW, the same can be said of DL (likely even more pronounced than AA). UA as well, although it's a less pronounced difference in that case.
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Babyshark
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 1:05 pm

ATL is a performance giant.

And Delta owns most all of it.

Makes normal hubs look small.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 3:02 pm

berari wrote:
This about BA and LHR. That's a one hub airline. Now compare BA to DL.


British Airways isn't a true one hub carrier either as they also fly out of London Gatwick and City and it is possible to connect at those airports. They're not their primary hubs, but they are hubs nonetheless.

All of the large American carriers are multi-hub airlines, all of them got hubs throughout the country. That's the American way of working. It works like that in Canada as well with both Air Canada and WestJet having multiple hubs.

For true one hub airlines you are to look in Europe, but it's getting more rare there as well. You could say KLM is a true one hub airline, but given that they're part of Air France-KLM they're not as Air France also has two hubs (Charles de Gaulle and Orly) so together Air France-KLM has three hubs. Only the traffic out of one of those hubs is branded as KLM while out of the other two hubs it is branded as Air France.

Same goes for the Lufthansa group. Lufthansa has two hubs (Frankfurt and Munich), but when throwing Swiss (Zurich), Austrian (Vienna) and Brussels Airlines (Brussels) in the mix the group suddenly has 5 hubs.

For a true one hub airline I could think of Aeromexico. They only have one hub and all of their traffic is funneled through there. Just about all of their flights touch that one hub.
 
739er
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 3:38 pm

I think that the most likely realization is that without their strong ATL hub, DL wouldn’t be near as profitable as they are. From what I understand, it’s a cheap fortress hub that DL has capitalized on, ...and rightfully so. Take ATL out of the equation and Im guessing DL wouldn’t be printing money like they’ve been able to do.
 
CIDFlyer
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 4:29 pm

ATL is pretty impressive no doubt about it. It’s even larger than DTW and MSP combined. (Both of those hubs are about 450 daily departures). With that said, while DL commands the worlds largest airline hub, I’m also impressed that AA has the worlds 2nd and 3rd largest hubs-DFW (900 daily departures soon) and CLT closing in on 700 daily departures). The sheer volume
In flights these 3 provide is impressive. I would call MSP, DTW, IAH, DEN etc your garden variety type hubs (300-500 ish flights) While the top 3 I would call super hubs. It’s true though that MSP and DTW were both much larger during the NW days, both had about 600 daily flights. MSP was also up there towards the top of the list as far as destinations served as well I believe at nearly 200. Cutbacks from prop planes and some right sizing of the DL system knocked them down however. I’ve often thought MSP could probably handle more traffic but apparently the combo of DTW/MSP serves the mid continent well :)
 
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spinotter
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 5:11 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
berari wrote:
This about BA and LHR. That's a one hub airline. Now compare BA to DL.


British Airways isn't a true one hub carrier either as they also fly out of London Gatwick and City and it is possible to connect at those airports. They're not their primary hubs, but they are hubs nonetheless.

All of the large American carriers are multi-hub airlines, all of them got hubs throughout the country. That's the American way of working. It works like that in Canada as well with both Air Canada and WestJet having multiple hubs.

For true one hub airlines you are to look in Europe, but it's getting more rare there as well. You could say KLM is a true one hub airline, but given that they're part of Air France-KLM they're not as Air France also has two hubs (Charles de Gaulle and Orly) so together Air France-KLM has three hubs. Only the traffic out of one of those hubs is branded as KLM while out of the other two hubs it is branded as Air France.

Same goes for the Lufthansa group. Lufthansa has two hubs (Frankfurt and Munich), but when throwing Swiss (Zurich), Austrian (Vienna) and Brussels Airlines (Brussels) in the mix the group suddenly has 5 hubs.

For a true one hub airline I could think of Aeromexico. They only have one hub and all of their traffic is funneled through there. Just about all of their flights touch that one hub.


Now come on. EK is a one-hub airline. So is ET. So is TP. Many many others!
 
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compensateme
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 5:23 pm

FSDan wrote:
compensateme wrote:
FSDan wrote:

(Bolding mine)

One thing to keep in mind when comparing ATL with DTW and MSP here is the size of DL vs O&D airlines (airlines that sell few, if any connections) at each airport. At ATL, there's DL (~1070 departures), WN (~125 departures, and they sell quite a few connections too), and then maybe 120-130 departures on other airlines that don't sell many connections. At DTW and MSP, it's basically just DL (~450-460 departures at each hub) plus 140-150 departures on other airlines that don't sell many connections (I'm sure there are some connections on SY at MSP or on NK at DTW, but they would be peanuts compared to WN at ATL). That rough math makes ATL less than half of DTW and MSP in terms of percentage of traffic flying on O&D-only airlines.

All that to say, ATL's total % of connecting traffic across all airlines compared to DTW and MSP is going to be higher in part because the share of traffic carried by airlines that sell lots of connections is significantly higher than DTW and MSP to begin with.


That's incorrect. You're drawing a false conclusion because your data points are invalid; Using the number of flights is deceiving due to the swings of capacity generated by various aircraft; for example, last year, AA and UA (combined) offered a similar number of flights at ATL as DTW, but carried more than twice the passengers, as ATL is virtually all-mainline whereas DTW is vast majority regional jet (including many 50-seaters).

Here's a more accurate rough calculation: In 2017, ATL handled 52M enplanements, of which 19.45M were local. DL handled 80% of total traffic, WN 9.5% and all other airlines 10.5%. Let's assume that passengers on "all other airlines" were local, and half of WN's traffic was local. That's 2.47M local passengers on WN, 5.46M on "all other airlines," and 11.52M on DL (37.4% of 52M enplanements were local, or 19.45M, less 2.47M on WN and 5.46M on all other airlines). 11.52M local of 41.6M total passengers on DL = a connecting passenger rate of 73%. Now, I say rough math because I'm not going to spend hours digging into this topic and some of these assumptions are not wholly correct; e.g. WN told the ACJ in 2016 that the "majority" of its ATL traffic was local (so the number would be over 50%, especially since WN slightly shrunk in 2018), and some passengers on "all other airlines" are connecting via KL, AF, KE, etc. But I'd say with high confidence that DL's overall connecting traffic in ATL is somewhere between 70% - 75%.


I'm not arguing anything about the actual % of connecting passengers DL carries at ATL (which seems to be what you're clarifying above). I'm saying that even if DL carried the same % connecting passengers at all three of MSP, DTW, and ATL (say 50% at each for simplicity), I'd expect the overall ATL connecting passenger stats across all carries to be higher than the same stats for MSP and DTW due to DL's relative larger size against other airlines at ATL. I agree # of departures isn't a pure measure of size, but to your point about AA having much larger average aircraft gauge at ATL vs DTW, the same can be said of DL (likely even more pronounced than AA). UA as well, although it's a less pronounced difference in that case.


Well, of course -- ATL has more O/D passengers than DTW & MSP combined, so naturally if all three hubs had 50% connecting traffic, the number of connecting passengers at ATL is going to be larger. But that doesn't constitute why nearly 2/3 of ATL's overall passengers are connecting, nor does the fact that it's a hub for WN -- WN would have to be carrying nothing but connecting traffic to push the % up that far.

Ultimately, in 2005, DL had 70% connecting traffic at SLC, 60%+ at DTW & MSP and 55%+ at ATL; today, it's at roughly 50% at DTW, SLC & MSP and 70%+ at ATL. It achieved that by moving connecting passengers from those hubs into ATL.
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evank516
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 6:14 pm

MSP, DTW, and SLC are absolutely full blown hubs. In fact, 90% of my recent travels on DL have taken me through MSP or DTW in the last year as I've experienced a huge uptick in travel from the Northeast to the Midwest. Flying from NYC to MCI, MSN, and MKE via ATL is way out of the way and an inefficient connecting itinerary. DTW and MSP are much more efficient. I've also flown to CWA and LSE which are exclusively served from DTW and MSP. Haven't connected in SLC yet, but it's definitely a hub and they have plenty of connecting traffic.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 6:21 pm

spinotter wrote:
So is TP.


As a matter of fact this is not true. TAP Air Portugal has two hubs: Lisbon and Porto. Agreed on the other ones, they are one hub airlines.

If an airline is a single hub or multi hub airline is for one thing determined by in what country the airline is based. Usually in a small country there is only one major hub airport, that is the hub of that airline. This one major airport serves more or less the whole country. In larger countries this is not possible as they are too big to be served by one major airport. These countries got multiple hub airports and therefor an airline can easily become a multi hub airline.

Take Singapore for example. The whole country has just one commercial international airport. For an airline like Singapore Airlines this is the sole airport they can operate out of. There isn't any choice, they can't move anywhere else. They have to be a single hub airline.

The USA on the other hand has a whole lot of hub airports, so airlines got a lot of options to choose from. They can choose one or multiple airports as their hubs. They can relatively easy set up new hubs or dehub existing hubs as it all stays within the country. That's the benefit of a large country.

However even in large countries some airlines choose to concentrate at one hub only. Aeroflot for example is a one hub airline, everything is concentrated at Moscow Sheremetyevo airport. Just about all of their flights touch that one airport. And in landmass Russia is even bigger than the USA. Of course Aeroflot is allowed to set up new hubs elsewhere in Russia, they just don't do so.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 6:46 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
The USA on the other hand has a whole lot of hub airports, so airlines got a lot of options to choose from. They can choose one or multiple airports as their hubs. They can relatively easy set up new hubs or dehub existing hubs as it all stays within the country. That's the benefit of a large country.

However even in large countries some airlines choose to concentrate at one hub only. Aeroflot for example is a one hub airline, everything is concentrated at Moscow Sheremetyevo airport. Just about all of their flights touch that one airport. And in landmass Russia is even bigger than the USA. Of course Aeroflot is allowed to set up new hubs elsewhere in Russia, they just don't do so.


Hub count is a function of geography and population distribution. New York City is the economic and cultural capital of the US, but even sizing the metro generously, it’s only about 10 percent of the national population and a similar percentage of GDP.

Argentina is a good counterexample. It’s decently large but half of the people and GDP are in or around Buenos Aires. Multiple hubs (or at least hubs in multiple cities) don’t make sense.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 11:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12, thank you for the link, a direct to the pdf:
https://orlandoairports.net/site/uploads/OandD_Rank.pdf

I haven't finished the math, but it looks like ATL is over half of DL's hubbing. Huh...


The thing that should be pointed out about that link is that it’s by airport not market.
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LAXdude1023
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sat May 11, 2019 11:37 pm

SESGDL wrote:
airzim wrote:
MSP, DTW, and SLC are most definitely hubs. The local O&D traffic is minuscule compared to amount of passengers transiting.
JFK and SEA are mostly hubs in the sense of feeding long haul traffic due to geographic position and terminal constraints.
LAX, LGA, and BOS are more limited in their transit options, but still push a tremendous amount of connections over these stations.
Your premise is deeply flawed.


The first part of your statement is completely false. MSP, DTW and SLC are all majority O&D operations for DL. Less than half of all passengers are transiting at these hubs.

Jeremy


I highly doubt that especially given the data provided.
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline?

Sat May 11, 2019 11:37 pm

Saying DL is a one hub airline is like saying WN is a no hub airline, regardless what the folks Dallas say.
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FSDan
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Sun May 12, 2019 1:52 pm

compensateme wrote:
FSDan wrote:
compensateme wrote:

That's incorrect. You're drawing a false conclusion because your data points are invalid; Using the number of flights is deceiving due to the swings of capacity generated by various aircraft; for example, last year, AA and UA (combined) offered a similar number of flights at ATL as DTW, but carried more than twice the passengers, as ATL is virtually all-mainline whereas DTW is vast majority regional jet (including many 50-seaters).

Here's a more accurate rough calculation: In 2017, ATL handled 52M enplanements, of which 19.45M were local. DL handled 80% of total traffic, WN 9.5% and all other airlines 10.5%. Let's assume that passengers on "all other airlines" were local, and half of WN's traffic was local. That's 2.47M local passengers on WN, 5.46M on "all other airlines," and 11.52M on DL (37.4% of 52M enplanements were local, or 19.45M, less 2.47M on WN and 5.46M on all other airlines). 11.52M local of 41.6M total passengers on DL = a connecting passenger rate of 73%. Now, I say rough math because I'm not going to spend hours digging into this topic and some of these assumptions are not wholly correct; e.g. WN told the ACJ in 2016 that the "majority" of its ATL traffic was local (so the number would be over 50%, especially since WN slightly shrunk in 2018), and some passengers on "all other airlines" are connecting via KL, AF, KE, etc. But I'd say with high confidence that DL's overall connecting traffic in ATL is somewhere between 70% - 75%.


I'm not arguing anything about the actual % of connecting passengers DL carries at ATL (which seems to be what you're clarifying above). I'm saying that even if DL carried the same % connecting passengers at all three of MSP, DTW, and ATL (say 50% at each for simplicity), I'd expect the overall ATL connecting passenger stats across all carries to be higher than the same stats for MSP and DTW due to DL's relative larger size against other airlines at ATL. I agree # of departures isn't a pure measure of size, but to your point about AA having much larger average aircraft gauge at ATL vs DTW, the same can be said of DL (likely even more pronounced than AA). UA as well, although it's a less pronounced difference in that case.


Well, of course -- ATL has more O/D passengers than DTW & MSP combined, so naturally if all three hubs had 50% connecting traffic, the number of connecting passengers at ATL is going to be larger. But that doesn't constitute why nearly 2/3 of ATL's overall passengers are connecting, nor does the fact that it's a hub for WN -- WN would have to be carrying nothing but connecting traffic to push the % up that far.

Ultimately, in 2005, DL had 70% connecting traffic at SLC, 60%+ at DTW & MSP and 55%+ at ATL; today, it's at roughly 50% at DTW, SLC & MSP and 70%+ at ATL. It achieved that by moving connecting passengers from those hubs into ATL.


Agreed! I don't think I've once suggested that DL's % of connecting traffic isn't higher at ATL than at DTW and MSP. The point I was going for was that, if anything, DTW and MSP's overall connecting % numbers vs ATL are diluted a bit by the fact that majority-O&D carriers have a larger piece of the overall pie at those two airports compared to at ATL. So again, I'm not disputing that DL carries a disproportionately high quantity of connecting traffic at ATL - I'm pushing back on this ridiculous claim that DTW and MSP aren't real hubs for DL, and that DL is a "one hub airline".
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