UA857
Topic Author
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:15 am

Would TWA still be operating today if 9/11 didn’t happen?
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:22 am

Hopefully you don't put too much weight into any of the replies you receive.
 
717atOGG
Posts: 699
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:24 am

While I'm not an expert on the subject and I wasn't alive when they went under, I don't think they'd be operating nowadays.

For one, the merger with AA was announced in January 2001 so the merger was already well underway when 9/11 happened. Also, Carl Icahn just damaged the company too much when he was CEO, despite their turnaround efforts in the late 1990's, giving up the LHR slots, and making the Karabu ticket deal. And, finally, if they did manage to survive the early 2000's, they would have probably been ripe for the picking during the era of consolidation, so chances are that HP (most likely, and was rumored before AA) or someone else would have swallowed them up.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6088
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:38 am

717atOGG wrote:
While I'm not an expert on the subject and I wasn't alive when they went under, I don't think they'd be operating nowadays.

For one, the merger with AA was announced in January 2001 so the merger was already well underway when 9/11 happened. Also, Carl Icahn just damaged the company too much when he was CEO, despite their turnaround efforts in the late 1990's, giving up the LHR slots, and making the Karabu ticket deal. And, finally, if they did manage to survive the early 2000's, they would have probably been ripe for the picking during the era of consolidation, so chances are that HP (most likely, and was rumored before AA) or someone else would have swallowed them up.

At least HP wouldve kept the TW brand.
You know all is right is the world when the only thing people worry about is if the president had sex with a pornstar.


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
777PHX
Posts: 809
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:39 am

I'm not sure why this question is being asked considering AA agreed to purchase some of TWA's assets as part of a prepackaged bankruptcy in 4/2001, five months before 9/11.
 
UA857
Topic Author
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:44 am

Didn’t TWA cease operations after 9/11?
 
717atOGG
Posts: 699
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:10 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:49 am

UA857 wrote:
Didn’t TWA cease operations after 9/11?

Yes. Their last flight was on 12/1/2001 from MCI to STL.
 
spacecadet
Posts: 3206
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:52 am

UA857 wrote:
Didn’t TWA cease operations after 9/11?


TWA never "ceased operations". They were purchased by AA pre-9/11. They continued operating under a different brand name and corporate structure.

TWA stopped booking flights under the TWA name in November of 2001. But that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. The purchase of TWA had already happened by that point.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
questions
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:21 am

I’ve always thought it was interesting that the TWA and PanAm* brands didn’t survive. Sad that they were so damaged there was little to no brand equity left.


*Aviation industry
 
OSL777FLYER
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:11 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:21 am

The truth is that, although 9/11 changed the industry forever, a lot of airlines were struggling before then. People like Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo (although at Texas International and Eastern Airlines) made enemies in a lot of places.

TWA was a pioneer of many things. Mostly using the B767 to gain 120 minute and then 180 minute ETOPS, it made the way for two-engine TATL.

However, selling off slots, losses (due to Carl Icahn), entering chapter 11 twice and then the TWA 800 accident brought the company beyond help. I guess AA saw something to recover from taking over part of the business, but it was sad to see a truly global airline disappear.
 
vorellanaj
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:34 pm

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:25 am

Impossible. TWA was acquired by American Airlines Inc. before 9/11.

Maybe if 9/11 didn't happen , DL and AA never went to declare bankruptcy.
The aviation world will be bored if only twins fly with commercial passengers. I love 747s
 
OSL777FLYER
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 8:11 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:30 am

questions wrote:
I’ve always thought it was interesting that the TWA and PanAm* brands didn’t survive. Sad that they were so damaged there was little to no brand equity left.


*Aviation industry


You could write a whole thread on PanAm alone, but it was unable to adjust after de-regulation. PanAm was THE airline everyone wanted to work for. It was once said that Juan Trippe was the one who made even the President of the United States wait on the telephone.

Because of it being a global, but American airline, it became a target of anti-Americanism, which culminated in the Lockerbie attack. PanAm was called "the airline too big to fail", but failure to adjust after de-regulation, not having domestic traffic for a while, plus a "superior" attitude of its management eventually forced it to cease operations. They also had to sell off traffic right to try to stem losses, which, inevitably became too large.

Sad that two of history's largest brands, PanAm and TWA basically went down the same way.
 
vorellanaj
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:34 pm

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:35 am

OSL777FLYER wrote:
The truth is that, although 9/11 changed the industry forever, a lot of airlines were struggling before then. People like Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo (although at Texas International and Eastern Airlines) made enemies in a lot of places.

TWA was a pioneer of many things. Mostly using the B767 to gain 120 minute and then 180 minute ETOPS, it made the way for two-engine TATL.

However, selling off slots, losses (due to Carl Icahn), entering chapter 11 twice and then the TWA 800 accident brought the company beyond help. I guess AA saw something to recover from taking over part of the business, but it was sad to see a truly global airline disappear.


That's correct. Icahn first and TWA800 second, destroyed the company and brand. TWA was associated vox populi with old and tatty aircraft. Also their fleet were badly maintained.

Add to Frank Lorenzo : Continental Airlines. Fortunately, Gordon Bethune (a former Boeing Executive) saved the company.
The aviation world will be bored if only twins fly with commercial passengers. I love 747s
 
MR27122
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:00 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:53 am

717atOGG wrote:
....and making the Karabu ticket deal...


TWA didn't make any deal. The Karabu tix "agreement" was kinda suicidal & spoke more to employee wrath towards Icahn & purging TWA of Icahn via any/all means. It was figuratively & literally the "poison pill" that employee Mngmt ingested to rid themselves of a "corporate raider".

Just my opinion---but TWA/Eastern & to a lesser degree Pan Am, post deregulation, possessed hyper-militant "old guard" employees/Unions & unfortunately sub-par management. In turn rendering them as industry "weaklings". AA had Crandall who was ingenious & developed a means by which to thwart PE---match fares on a fraction of seats (AA was---I could be wrong---in the best "technology" position (SABRE) after Deregulation. UA (Dick Ferris) kinda stumbled---"Allegis" (sic)---but was attempting to be innovative & it had the best legacy route network & then came the purchase of Pan Am's Pacific.

Basically the foundation for failure was layed by a shared Management & Employee mentality that was pre-deregulation.

I think that AA was drawn to TW b/c of the STL "hub" & believing it would be an effective "relief valve" for the congestion @ ORD. Aside from STL....TWA didn't have much to offer.

In response to the precise question "Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?"---ABSOLUTELY!!! However, the one caveat is that TWA would've had to sell of all of it's aircraft & place "wings on pigs" & not only teach them to fly, but teach them to fly with people on their backs!.
 
questions
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:45 am

MR27122 wrote:
TWA didn't make any deal. The Karabu tix "agreement" was kinda suicidal & spoke more to employee wrath towards Icahn & purging TWA of Icahn via any/all means. It was figuratively & literally the "poison pill" that employee Mngmt ingested to rid themselves of a "corporate raider".


Here’s an interesting and different POV on the Karabu deal:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39409
 
questions
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:52 am

questions wrote:
MR27122 wrote:
TWA didn't make any deal. The Karabu tix "agreement" was kinda suicidal & spoke more to employee wrath towards Icahn & purging TWA of Icahn via any/all means. It was figuratively & literally the "poison pill" that employee Mngmt ingested to rid themselves of a "corporate raider".


Here’s an interesting and different POV on the Karabu deal:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39409


And here’s another POV that may be closer to MR27122’s:

https://www.businessinsider.com/marc-andreessen-carl-icahn-killed-an-entire-airline-2014-3
 
Ionosphere
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:46 pm

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:04 am

TWA didn't really have much going for them. STL was the only real hub. JFK was really just a focus city. There were small operations at BOS, LAX, & SJU. 9/11 killed TWA's JFK-CAI-RUH flight.
 
USAirKid
Posts: 336
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:45 am

UA857 wrote:
Would TWA still be operating today if 9/11 didn’t happen?


MR27122 wrote:
In response to the precise question "Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?"---ABSOLUTELY!!! However, the one caveat is that TWA would've had to sell of all of it's aircraft & place "wings on pigs" & not only teach them to fly, but teach them to fly with people on their backs!.


This isn't really even a question worth asking, as AA's purchase of TWA was completed before 9/11. I went digging around in the SEC filings from back then. I put together the following timeline on AA's acquisition of TWA:

  • January 10, 2001 - American agrees to purchase TWA from a prepackaged bankruptcy that is filed on the same day. AA also provides debtor in possession financing. Press Release
  • Monday, March 12, 2001 - The bankruptcy court accepts AA's bid to buy TWA. Press Release
  • April 9, 2001 - AA acquires TWA and operates it as a subsidiary, TWA, LLC for a while - Press Release

Yes, the last flight of TWA happened after September 11, 2001, but the writing was already on the wall for TWA on September 10, 2001. Airline mergers take a while to integrate, and its pretty common during an acquisition for the acquired carrier to be operated independently of the acquiring carrier for a while.
 
ChrisKen
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:15 pm

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:34 am

No, they were in terminal decline many years before 9/11 happened. The terminal takeover was also in progress before that date.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 687
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:55 pm

My brother started his career with TW in 1970 as a FE on a Convair 880. During that decade he went through four furloughs before he went to another airline. TW was a bit of a basket case even before that. I'm actually surprised they lasted as long as they did.
 
MR27122
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:00 am

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:57 pm

This isn't really even a question worth asking, as AA's purchase of TWA was completed before 9/11. I went digging around in the SEC filings from back then. I put together the following timeline on AA's acquisition of TWA:

  • January 10, 2001 - American agrees to purchase TWA from a prepackaged bankruptcy that is filed on the same day. AA also provides debtor in possession financing. Press Release
  • Monday, March 12, 2001 - The bankruptcy court accepts AA's bid to buy TWA. Press Release
  • April 9, 2001 - AA acquires TWA and operates it as a subsidiary, TWA, LLC for a while - Press Release

Yes, the last flight of TWA happened after September 11, 2001, but the writing was already on the wall for TWA on September 10, 2001. Airline mergers take a while to integrate, and its pretty common during an acquisition for the acquired carrier to be operated independently of the acquiring carrier for a while.[/quote]

Thanks! The timeline you've provided, conclusively answers the OP's question. Without AA's DIP as of 1/10/01...TWA ceases ops in Q1 2001. TWA didn't actually exist as a standalone airline on 9/11---the theoretical "what if" re: TWA & 9/11 isn't applicable 'cause without AA's $$$ infusion as of 1/10/01 TWA would've ceased ops sometime in Q1, or at the extreme latest Q2, of 2001.

An interesting question, that I don't know have a clue about is...."Was TWA 800 the most catstrophic aircraft loss of all time & ultimately doomed TWA, OR was Pan Am 103 worse???? OR, what accident so crippled an airline that it can be traced back as the 'start of the fall'....ValuJet #592 (eliminated the brand, but not the airline)"
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2057
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

URe: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:01 pm

It’s a mute question as AA had bought out TWA before 9/11. The question should be could AA have kept running the TWA (now AA operation) in STL had 9/11 never happened. It’s hard to say, STL at the time was a mega hub for TWA running about 500 or so daily flights and was an important and historical transportation hub in the US. Of all the hub closures over the years I think it’s the one I miss the most. It was centrally locates and had good coverage. It has bounced back and WN has taken advantage where AA left and had built it back into the form of a hub that has many connections to smaller/medium sized WN markets in the Midwest (I.e ICT/DSM)
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2057
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: URe: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:03 pm

[quote="CIDFlyer"]It’s a mute question as AA had bought out TWA before 9/11. The question should be could AA have kept running the TWA (now AA operation) in STL had 9/11 never happened. It’s hard to say, STL at the time was a mega hub for TWA running about 500 or so daily flights and was an important and historical transportation hub in the US. Of all the hub closures over the years I think it’s the one I miss the most. It was centrally located and had good coverage. It has bounced back and WN has taken advantage where AA left and had built it back into the form of a hub that has many connections to smaller/medium sized WN markets in the Midwest (I.e ICT/DSM). I think the STL might have had a better chance in a US/HP/TWA tie up, that would have provided all 3 carries a balanced hub and route structure
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:12 pm

Lots of great points made above..one other..TWA's credit was abysmal..they paid some of the highest lease rates on aircraft. For some crazy reason, some of those companies holding those leases thought AA would just roll over and pay (B717's, I think the B757's (plus the P & W issue), and a number of other frames) . They were sadly mistaken..they got those planes back in a hurry after 9/11, many even before.

The point tho is that TWA paid a big premium just to have aircraft to fly...an unsustainable business plan. They would have needed a huge break to get better rates..and that was not happening.

I seem to recall that on some flights even with a 100% LF, there was no profit. Not Sustainable.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Would TWA still be operating if 9/11 didn’t happen?

Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:55 pm

Something additional to point out: AA studied the death of TWA very carefully, and outsmarted Icahn and the Karabu Agreement. Upon AA taking over the gates, employees, and certain planes, Icahn went to court to sue AA for enforcement of the Karabu agreement, arguing that AA had purchased TW and as such, was on the hook for all contracts. AA countered, pointing out that they had not purchased a living entity, only getting first dibs on the carcass, and the court sided with AA. Icahn and his blood-sucking vampire agreement were out of luck completely.

Ironically, an Israeli court sided against AA in the matter of TWA's unpaid debt to Israeli employees, and said that if AA was every going to fly, they would have to "fork over the dough". I believe the bill was paid and AA was/is/will be okay to fly PHL-TLV.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Super80Fan and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos