KLDC10
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Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:25 am

Usually, the media has a tendency to over-hype examples of passengers being removed from flights for legitimate reasons, but this example really does appear to be a huge overreaction on the part of this WestJet crew:

In summary, this passenger, recently having suffered a stroke, took a sleeping pill prior to takeoff and fell asleep. A Flight Attendant insisted he be awake for takeoff (which seems reasonable), but decided to remove him from the flight after he had been roused from his slumber. A nurse, who was travelling as a passenger onboard, advised the crew that the passenger was fit to travel, but this advice was ignored and the crew insisted he be removed, which he was, by two Paramedics who "checked his vitals and determined he was fit to travel". The passenger then contacted his Doctor, who sent an additional confirmation (by email) that he was fit to fly. All of this medical advice was ignored, and the passenger was denied re-boarding.

The problem was then compounded, as the passenger in question was flying on a package deal with his family, which meant that, despite promises of re-accomodation, the next flight he was offered was seven days later. This meant that he had to shell out nearly $2000CAD for a new flight with Air Canada and a hotel in Toronto until then.

Article here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/westje ... -1.4885958

While I realize that the crew ultimately has a responsibility for the safety of their passengers and aircraft, this example is fully ridiculous. If they will not listen to the advice of trained and certified medial professionals regarding an individual's fitness to fly, then whose advice will they listen to?
DC9/MD90/MD11/F70/BAE146
737/738/739/744/748/752/763/772/789
A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A346/A359
Q400/E170/E175/E190
 
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zeke
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:59 am

Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
backseatdriver
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:03 pm

While WestJet wouldn't comment on the specifics of the case, it said it stands by the crew's decisions. The airline also referenced federal aviation regulations, which state that airlines, at their discretion, can deny boarding to any passenger who shows signs that they could pose a safety risk.


I love when airlines cite these regulatory guidelines because technically anyone that walks through the door to the aircraft brings with them some base level of risk. So even when your crew blatantly disregards the opinion of medical professionals - which no doubt the decision to deny boarding was based on the extensive medical training they received from WestJet - you can always fall back on that little clause and skip away happily on your own moral high ground. Way to go, WestJet.
 
Blerg
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:03 pm

zeke wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.


Yes but then again a nurse, two paramedics and his doctor said he was fine to travel. I hope they know better than the crew onboard.
 
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zeke
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:11 pm

None of them has the authority to release the airlines liability, nor do any of those have the ability to release the passengers liability.

The simple fact or matter is any passenger who is unwell needs to be pre-approved by the airline to travel. Crew who are sick also need to have medical clearance.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
cschleic
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:13 pm

Not to mention..... while the concept of being awake during take off certainly has a safety component, in the event of an emergency, I've seen plenty of people (myself included) who have fallen asleep prior to take off on a flight, especially at night. Hopefully more to the story here.
 
jfern022
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:23 pm

backseatdriver wrote:
While WestJet wouldn't comment on the specifics of the case, it said it stands by the crew's decisions. The airline also referenced federal aviation regulations, which state that airlines, at their discretion, can deny boarding to any passenger who shows signs that they could pose a safety risk.


I love when airlines cite these regulatory guidelines because technically anyone that walks through the door to the aircraft brings with them some base level of risk. So even when your crew blatantly disregards the opinion of medical professionals - which no doubt the decision to deny boarding was based on the extensive medical training they received from WestJet - you can always fall back on that little clause and skip away happily on your own moral high ground. Way to go, WestJet.


Stick to being a backseat driver
 
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zeke
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:36 pm

If they fail to notify the airline of their condition would be surprised they didn’t notify their travel insurance company either.

See how quick they drop a claim for a pre-existing non disclosed condition if that was the case.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:41 pm

jfern022 wrote:
backseatdriver wrote:
While WestJet wouldn't comment on the specifics of the case, it said it stands by the crew's decisions. The airline also referenced federal aviation regulations, which state that airlines, at their discretion, can deny boarding to any passenger who shows signs that they could pose a safety risk.


I love when airlines cite these regulatory guidelines because technically anyone that walks through the door to the aircraft brings with them some base level of risk. So even when your crew blatantly disregards the opinion of medical professionals - which no doubt the decision to deny boarding was based on the extensive medical training they received from WestJet - you can always fall back on that little clause and skip away happily on your own moral high ground. Way to go, WestJet.


Stick to being a backseat driver

Just to be symmetric...
Stick to being a waiting room doctor - and hopefully this is the message which will come from the judge at the end of the day.
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:47 pm

zeke wrote:
If they fail to notify the airline of their condition would be surprised they didn’t notify their travel insurance company either.

See how quick they drop a claim for a pre-existing non disclosed condition if that was the case.


Frankly speaking, travel insurance is not mentioned in the article.
And it really comes down to where to draw the line? Should every passenger pass a medical before the flight?
What is the level of condition that needs to be reported to the airline? For example, I have a blood pressure condition. Pretty well controlled, but - (knocking the wood) should any acute problem occur - it would be listed as a contributing factor. No medical limitations are imposed whatsoever - but, according to your logic, I have to report it as well? What does the CoC says about that?
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:58 pm

Had he not taken a sleeping pill I would never had denied boarding. But in reality that’s no different than being drunk.

In the event of an emergency the crew is responsible to get everyone out safely and having to move or spend extra time on an inebriated person is extra liability.

Usually I’m of the mindset of live and let live. If the guys not causing issues leave him alone. But he obviously perked the FAs attention and in the end the crew made the safest decision for the passenger and the crew.
 
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neutrino
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:59 pm

I had in the past inadvertently dozed off during taxiing and takeoff, on separate occasions.
Whatever the reason, I was not "disturbed" at all by anybody.
Both incidents happened on afternoon flights after missing a whole night of sleep.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
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longhauler
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:02 pm

I would be very curious to know the other side of the story. Westjet aren't idiots. Against the advice of a nurse, then paramedics then the patient's actual physician, why would the cabin crew choose not to take him?

There must have been something else concerning them.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
HPRamper
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:21 pm

Being awake for takeoff is a requirement now? Am I missing something? I've probably slept through dozens of takeoffs.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:25 pm

zeke wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.


So you’re a doctor now. Yeah one side of the story but that one side was backed up by people who actually practice medicine. Stick to flying airplanes fella.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
TMccrury
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:31 pm

Hmmm.. I'm on the fence with this one. Before losing nearly 90 pounds, I could fall asleep in a heart beat. i would board a plane and before we made it to the runway, was most likely asleep. Part of it was due to my extreme obesity the other part was due to being borderline diabetic. The first was just being tired from my size. The later was the affects of high sugar numbers. Yet, I was not ever asked to wake up and was never removed from a flight. I understand the point of the WestJet crew, however, how did they find out he was a stroke patient without him telling them so. So, in my view, the stroke part played no part in some of their decisions. It wasn't until after that was learned, the crew became concerned about his condition etc. However, when you have a nurse, 2 paramedic and his physician saying he is good to fly, I would think he is good to fly and should have been put back on the plane immediately.
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:31 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
zeke wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.


So you’re a doctor now. Yeah one side of the story but that one side was backed up by people who actually practice medicine. Stick to flying airplanes fella.

Frankly speaking, other side is allegedly backed by medical professionals. Could always be more than that, from wishful thinking and misinterpretation to - until we hear the other side - plain lies.
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:38 pm

CaptCoolHand wrote:
Had he not taken a sleeping pill I would never had denied boarding. But in reality that’s no different than being drunk.

In the event of an emergency the crew is responsible to get everyone out safely and having to move or spend extra time on an inebriated person is extra liability.

Usually I’m of the mindset of live and let live. If the guys not causing issues leave him alone. But he obviously perked the FAs attention and in the end the crew made the safest decision for the passenger and the crew.

Safest decision would be to cancel the flight, abandon air travel and stay home. We were painfully reminded about that just a few days ago as almost 200 lives were lost in a crash.
Everything else is a risk management.
As for evacuation.. FAA allows quadriplegics travel, I suspect CAA does that as well. Which is a much higher level of required assistance. This particular person was traveling with the family, so asking the family to assume caretakers role should alleviate most concerns.
Only plausible scenario which should IMHO be considered is in-flight medical diversion, which is arguably not a safety issue for everyone on board. Until too may people with US passports who can have issues with US authorities after the plane is diverted.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:50 pm

HPRamper wrote:
Being awake for takeoff is a requirement now? Am I missing something? I've probably slept through dozens of takeoffs.

No but a decent chance of being roused isn't unreasonable. The passenger had taken sleeping pills, if these had made him sleepy to the point of being difficult to awaken (think emergency), then I can understand why they were offloaded.

As always, there's at least three sides to a story.
 
musman9853
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:56 pm

zeke wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.



thank you for your learned medical opinion doctor! or maybe we should listen to the actual medical professionals who said he was safe to fly instead of the onboard waitresses.
 
KentB27
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:15 pm

I've been on several flights where somebody was snoring through the safety demonstration and nobody gave a damn. People fall asleep before takeoff all the time and usually nobody cares or does anything about it. I'm failing to see what the problem is here.
 
tp1040
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:35 pm

The man wasn't just asleep, he had taken medication that would insure that he went to sleep. Don't know what he had taken, but he could have been unfocused for 8 hours. The article doesn't mention if it was prescription strength.

Also, I am not sure what the "recent stroke" has to do with it. Was he partially disabled and unfocused.?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:42 pm

zeke wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.


Again a pilot who imagines that learning to fly brings knowledge on medical issues. It seems that everybody connected to medicine in this case, including this guys physician, were overruled by the people knowing about flying.
If a medical practitioner would tell you out of his medical knowledge that your plane is not safe to fly you would accept that?
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:52 pm

So someone who's resting is a danger during an evacuation but someone who literally can't walk or is blind or is old and frail is just fine?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:01 pm

musman9853 wrote:
zeke wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.



thank you for your learned medical opinion doctor! or maybe we should listen to the actual medical professionals who said he was safe to fly instead of the onboard waitresses.


Onboard waitresses who are required to get your ass off the plane in an emergency and who can lose their jobs if they make the wrong decisions.

Honestly, the attitude you just displayed towards airline professionals is insulting.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:03 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
zeke wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.


Again a pilot who imagines that learning to fly brings knowledge on medical issues. It seems that everybody connected to medicine in this case, including this guys physician, were overruled by the people knowing about flying.
If a medical practitioner would tell you out of his medical knowledge that your plane is not safe to fly you would accept that?


It’s called liability.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
Virtual737
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:04 pm

musman9853 wrote:
thank you for your learned medical opinion doctor! or maybe we should listen to the actual medical professionals who said he was safe to fly instead of the onboard waitresses.


I'm a loudmouth gobshite at the best of times but not even I would have made that comment.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:08 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
So someone who's resting is a danger during an evacuation but someone who literally can't walk or is blind or is old and frail is just fine?


Perhaps someone with a legally protected disability is handled differently than some who’s in a medically-induced coma that didn’t get permission ahead of time to fly?

I (we) deal with people everyday who for a variety of reasons put themselves in a situation that they expect me (us) to fix because in their eyes we just should. Well, that often isn’t going to happen. There are reasons for not making exceptions in those circumstances and no amount of yelling or pleading or threatening is going to change that. That’s why it’s a really good idea to ask questions first.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:17 pm

kalvado wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Had he not taken a sleeping pill I would never had denied boarding. But in reality that’s no different than being drunk.

In the event of an emergency the crew is responsible to get everyone out safely and having to move or spend extra time on an inebriated person is extra liability.

Usually I’m of the mindset of live and let live. If the guys not causing issues leave him alone. But he obviously perked the FAs attention and in the end the crew made the safest decision for the passenger and the crew.

Safest decision would be to cancel the flight, abandon air travel and stay home. We were painfully reminded about that just a few days ago as almost 200 lives were lost in a crash.
Everything else is a risk management.
As for evacuation.. FAA allows quadriplegics travel, I suspect CAA does that as well. Which is a much higher level of required assistance. This particular person was traveling with the family, so asking the family to assume caretakers role should alleviate most concerns.
Only plausible scenario which should IMHO be considered is in-flight medical diversion, which is arguably not a safety issue for everyone on board. Until too may people with US passports who can have issues with US authorities after the plane is diverted.


A little dramatic don’t you think...

You don’t get to fly if your intoxicated.
Alchohol? Sleeping pills? Any other drug.
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:27 pm

CaptCoolHand wrote:
kalvado wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Had he not taken a sleeping pill I would never had denied boarding. But in reality that’s no different than being drunk.

In the event of an emergency the crew is responsible to get everyone out safely and having to move or spend extra time on an inebriated person is extra liability.

Usually I’m of the mindset of live and let live. If the guys not causing issues leave him alone. But he obviously perked the FAs attention and in the end the crew made the safest decision for the passenger and the crew.

Safest decision would be to cancel the flight, abandon air travel and stay home. We were painfully reminded about that just a few days ago as almost 200 lives were lost in a crash.
Everything else is a risk management.
As for evacuation.. FAA allows quadriplegics travel, I suspect CAA does that as well. Which is a much higher level of required assistance. This particular person was traveling with the family, so asking the family to assume caretakers role should alleviate most concerns.
Only plausible scenario which should IMHO be considered is in-flight medical diversion, which is arguably not a safety issue for everyone on board. Until too may people with US passports who can have issues with US authorities after the plane is diverted.


A little dramatic don’t you think...

You don’t get to fly if your intoxicated.
Alchohol? Sleeping pills? Any other drug.

WS contract of carriage calls for "significant impairment" as a reason to refuse transportation, not just being drunk. Rule 30 (B)(1) in WS International Fare Rules and Passenger Tariff.
The person in question, according to the CBC, " ...also called one of his doctors and got him to send an email, confirming he was fit to fly."
Good luck proving that he could do that in "significantly impaired" condition
 
Virtual737
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:37 pm

Many years ago I worked as a nighclub doorman and one of the golden rules was:

Once you've made the decision to eject someone, or refuse entry in the first place, you do not change that decision. It would be a sign of weakness and lead to the possibility of you admitting you might have made a mistake.

I see some striking similarities with some airline employees.
 
CaptCoolHand
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:38 pm

I guess it’s up to the court to decide then if the passenger chooses to take that route.

Its never wrong to err on the side of safety.
Kalvado we can agree to disagree. It’s unfortunate this guy was inconvenienced, maybe next time wait till you’re airborn before popping your pills.
Last edited by CaptCoolHand on Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:41 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
So someone who's resting is a danger during an evacuation but someone who literally can't walk or is blind or is old and frail is just fine?


Perhaps someone with a legally protected disability is handled differently than some who’s in a medically-induced coma that didn’t get permission ahead of time to fly?

I (we) deal with people everyday who for a variety of reasons put themselves in a situation that they expect me (us) to fix because in their eyes we just should. Well, that often isn’t going to happen. There are reasons for not making exceptions in those circumstances and no amount of yelling or pleading or threatening is going to change that. That’s why it’s a really good idea to ask questions first.


So itsnot about safety in the end. You accept people putting you and me in those situations when they're blind or too fat or paralyzed but if someone is sleeping they are just over the line? In a crash I'll take a sleepy but medically safe stroke victim over a 90 year old dottering senior citizen any day.
 
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MassAppeal
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:45 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
Many years ago I worked as a nighclub doorman and one of the golden rules was:

Once you've made the decision to eject someone, or refuse entry in the first place, you do not change that decision. It would be a sign of weakness and lead to the possibility of you admitting you might have made a mistake.

I see some striking similarities with some airline employees.


Its what happens when you give people who shouldn't have that sort of power the power to literally ruin your life.

Treating flight attendants as some sort of holy never to be questioned entities is a bad thing. Don't give me attitude or you face a felony? Get real.
 
Jet-lagged
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:48 pm

Not a nice situation. The pasenger was probably trying to keep a promise to the family and not have to cancel their holiday. That’s commendable.

The airline’s flight crew weren’t out to ruin anybody’s vacation but at the end of the day they are responsible and liable for the flight and passengers as required within their duty. And they have no control on how the airline responds after the passenger was no longer on the airplane.

Sometimes, no matter who caused what, everybody loses.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:50 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
Treating flight attendants as some sort of holy never to be questioned entities is a bad thing. Don't give me attitude or you face a felony? Get real.


That's true but I can't actually remember the last time I had anything other than good or great service from an FA. Perhaps that's because I've not flown in North America for a decade or so..
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:56 pm

CaptCoolHand wrote:
I guess it’s up to the court to decide then if the passenger chooses to take that route.

Its never wrong to err on the side of safety.
Kalvado we can agree to disagree. It’s unfortunate this guy was inconvenienced, maybe next time wait till you’re airborn before popping your pills.

I don't see a cause for disagreement here. You call it safety, I call it customer abuse clear cut. Until there is more to the story, which I doubt.
And it is never OK to err on the side of safety for the sake of safety alone. Accelerating to 500 knots is a huge hazard. Being 30k feet above the ground is a hazard. Dont' even mention driving or crossing the road - stay at home, err on the side of safety!
Pretty much everything we do in our lives has a hazard to it. Balancing risks with the payback from those risks is what safety is about.

You say "wait till you’re airborn before popping your pills" - but isn't landing as hazardous as takeoff? Are you OK with someone being impaired for evacuation on landing or divertion, but not takeoff evacuation?
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:36 pm

MassAppeal wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
MassAppeal wrote:
So someone who's resting is a danger during an evacuation but someone who literally can't walk or is blind or is old and frail is just fine?


Perhaps someone with a legally protected disability is handled differently than some who’s in a medically-induced coma that didn’t get permission ahead of time to fly?

I (we) deal with people everyday who for a variety of reasons put themselves in a situation that they expect me (us) to fix because in their eyes we just should. Well, that often isn’t going to happen. There are reasons for not making exceptions in those circumstances and no amount of yelling or pleading or threatening is going to change that. That’s why it’s a really good idea to ask questions first.


So itsnot about safety in the end. You accept people putting you and me in those situations when they're blind or too fat or paralyzed but if someone is sleeping they are just over the line? In a crash I'll take a sleepy but medically safe stroke victim over a 90 year old dottering senior citizen any day.


No, it is about safety but some people are protected by law. There is also going to be judgment involved but that’s going to be the case in virtually situation.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:46 pm

CaptCoolHand wrote:
kalvado wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
Had he not taken a sleeping pill I would never had denied boarding. But in reality that’s no different than being drunk.

In the event of an emergency the crew is responsible to get everyone out safely and having to move or spend extra time on an inebriated person is extra liability.

Usually I’m of the mindset of live and let live. If the guys not causing issues leave him alone. But he obviously perked the FAs attention and in the end the crew made the safest decision for the passenger and the crew.

Safest decision would be to cancel the flight, abandon air travel and stay home. We were painfully reminded about that just a few days ago as almost 200 lives were lost in a crash.
Everything else is a risk management.
As for evacuation.. FAA allows quadriplegics travel, I suspect CAA does that as well. Which is a much higher level of required assistance. This particular person was traveling with the family, so asking the family to assume caretakers role should alleviate most concerns.
Only plausible scenario which should IMHO be considered is in-flight medical diversion, which is arguably not a safety issue for everyone on board. Until too may people with US passports who can have issues with US authorities after the plane is diverted.


A little dramatic don’t you think...

You don’t get to fly if your intoxicated.
Alchohol? Sleeping pills? Any other drug.


Since when were sleeping pills not allowed? People get prescribed them specifically for long flights in cattle class.
 
stratclub
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:57 pm

kalvado wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:

You say "wait till you’re airborn before popping your pills" - but isn't landing as hazardous as takeoff? Are you OK with someone being impaired for evacuation on landing or divertion, but not takeoff evacuation?

Or better yet, don't take sleeping pills until after the flight. Unless a "medical professional" is a qualified/rated flight surgeon, their determination is a semi educated guess because they probably would not consider the possibility of evacuation in an emergency.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:01 pm

If i had a nickel for every time I've fallen asleep on a plane before takeoff, I wouldnt have to work.
You know all is right is the world when the only thing people worry about is if the president had sex with a pornstar.


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Aptivaboy
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:11 pm

I may be going off one small tangent here, but do we know which seat he was in? If he was in a window seat, then I fail to see how him sleeping would constitute a hazard to anyone else in case of an evacuation. If he was in an aisle seat and passengers had to struggle over or around him to get out, then okay, I could perhaps see Westjet's point of view.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:13 pm

zeke wrote:
If they fail to notify the airline of their condition would be surprised they didn’t notify their travel insurance company either.

See how quick they drop a claim for a pre-existing non disclosed condition if that was the case.

Can’t wait to fill out the “Pre existing condition” form the next time I buy a ticket to Cleveland.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:17 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I may be going off one small tangent here, but do we know which seat he was in? If he was in a window seat, then I fail to see how him sleeping would constitute a hazard to anyone else in case of an evacuation. If he was in an aisle seat and passengers had to struggle over or around him to get out, then okay, I could perhaps see Westjet's point of view.

It was a family of 3, including 21 year old son of the sleepy guy. If they were sitting together, it can work either way; asking able-bodied adult male to assist his father with the evacuation if needed isn't too much from my perspective.
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:23 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:

No, it is about safety but some people are protected by law. There is also going to be judgment involved but that’s going to be the case in virtually situation.

Exactly, and this is specifically about failed judgment. Unshaken by opinions of medical professionals. A very honorable mention for the lack of common sense goes to the crew who assured reaccomodation on the next flight.... on once a week route.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:32 pm

I've been a flight attendant for 37 years and have NEVER heard of any airline demanding that you remain awake for taxi, takeoff and landing. This is just ridiculous. Now, if they'd tried to rouse the passenger and he was unresponsive then yes, I could see returning to the gate. But trying to wake him up only because he'd dozed off before takeoff is insanity.
 
musman9853
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:56 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
zeke wrote:
Not ridiculous at all. I think it is silly to fly so soon after having a stroke as you are treating a brain that is recovering from a lack of oxygen with an atmosphere that is lower on oxygen.

Maybe a sleeping pill will mask syntoms of a complication of a stoke.

Maybe the passenger had not told the airline they recently had a stroke and had no clearance to fly from the airline medical provider. The medical clearance says things like we accept you as a passenger however if you fall ill or pass away we are not diverting.

Only one side of the story.



thank you for your learned medical opinion doctor! or maybe we should listen to the actual medical professionals who said he was safe to fly instead of the onboard waitresses.


Onboard waitresses who are required to get your ass off the plane in an emergency and who can lose their jobs if they make the wrong decisions.

Honestly, the attitude you just displayed towards airline professionals is insulting.



99.99999999% of flight attendants will never have to evacuate an aircraft. Their primary job is customer service.
 
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aerorobnz
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:45 pm

I recall being on an exit row on an EK A380 where the crew in the jumpseat wasn't even awake for takeoff,
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
kalvado
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:46 pm

musman9853 wrote:
99.99999999% of flight attendants will never have to evacuate an aircraft. Their primary job is customer service.

This is an overly brave statement. Right now safety of major airlines is in the ballpark of 1 serious crash per 4 million flights.
Crew member who flies 800 hours a year medium-haul, say 400 legs a year over 25 years gets to fly 10 thousand legs in the carrier, and 1 out of 400 chance to get involved in a serious crash. Already much less than your abundance of 9's.
Evacuations are even more common, FAA database has a few of such events with mainline aircraft per year. DL in May in DEN and WN in February in SNA are some pof US examples (you probably would discount last week Caribian Airlines ATR evacuation in Trinidad as irrelevant, right?)
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Man removed from WestJet flight after falling asleep prior to takeoff.

Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:50 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
The passenger had taken sleeping pills, if these had made him sleepy to the point of being difficult to awaken (think emergency), then I can understand why they were offloaded.


Where does it say the crew knew he had taken sleeping pills? Nowhere in the article, and nowhere in the statement from WS, either.

So, odds are they saw he was sleeping and decided to hassle him for whatever reason? I can understand if perhaps his seat was reclined prior to takeoff, sure, but that's not mentioned either. And I can think of perhaps a hundred times I've fallen asleep at my seat immediately after boarding and was never disturbed by the crew through taxi, takeoff, and cruise.

It's just odd that for whatever reason, this particular crew chose to wake this particular customer, then decided he was unfit to fly based on being sleepy.
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